EAST saves West's BUTT today!

[MarkMyWords]

B. SCOPE
This Agreement covers all revenue and all known and recurring miscellaneous flying
performed by the Company with <<<Pilots>>> on its payroll. All flying covered by this
Agreement shall be performed by <<<Pilots>>> whose names appear on the <<<America West>>>
Airlines, Inc. Pilot's System Seniority List.

These flights no matter what you call them whould be considered "known /revenue flights" and thus scope was violated because te were not performed by AWA pilots.

You would be right if it was a US East crew flying a US West airplane, or a US West crew flying a US East airplane.

Let me ask you this. We have a flight 161 that operates BOS-PIT-PHX. If PIT were snowed in are we permitted to operate the flight BOS-PHX non-stop. Yes we can. If it operated as flight 160 BOS-PIT and 161 PIT-PHX, then we would create an extra section to operate BOS-PHX. Is that a violation of scope? Nope. If US West canceled their BOS-PHX flight due to a mechanical and rerouted customers to our extra section, is that a violation of scope?

you still have not proven that there was a violation of scope. What the company did was in the best interest of the CUSTOMERS that we serve.

 

[700UW]

So screw the CBAs and let the company do as they choose?

Is that how you think Mark?

You dont work under a CBA, you don't get it.

 

[MarkMyWords]

And 700.....you fail to realise that we did not violate a contract or an FAR. There is nothing that prohibits US East from flying PHX-LAX as an EXTRA SECTION. US East could not operate as HP123. That is where your scope issue would be valid and an FAR violation would have occured.

 

[700UW]

You don't get it, the company used a US/East flight to make up a US/West cancelled flight, that is the violation.

 

[EricLv2Fish]

Even if the company pays the flight crew it's still a win situation for the company. What normally happens when a flight is cancelled due to maintenance failure? Are the flight crews still paid? It seems crappy if they are not and are stuck somewhere waiting for the aircraft to get fixed.

 

[MarkMyWords]

I am not saying screw the CBA's. We, as a company, did what is right for the customers and we did so with the resources we had available.

Show me where we violated anyone's CBA. As a company, East or West, it wasn't some concerted effort to bypass someones contract, it was a response to aircraft being out of serivce that was done within the letter of the contract.

You don't get it, the company used a US/East flight to make up a US/West cancelled flight, that is the violation.

I get it very well. HP flight xxx canceled. US operated an extra section in the same time frame. NO VIOLATION. Had US operated as HP flight xxx, then there would have been a major FAR violation along with a contract violation.

I think I have a vastly greater knowledge in this area then you do. There was no line crossed, but the toes were right up to that line.

Would you have prefered that we canceled these 7 flights and stranded nearly 1000 Customers?

 

[UPNAWAY]

So screw the CBAs and let the company do as they choose?

Well, actually yes! The CBAs are not the free market they are (I agree self imposed) restrictions. If the CO. could do completely as they want (as they should be able to, as you and I can do with our own personal business) if they suck, PAX and Employees will avoid them, if they suceed PAX and employees will make them all succesful. It really is that simple!

 

[Snafu]

I elect YOU to go out to the gate and explain to 130 holiday travelers the fine points of the IAM contract and why they have to wait several hours/days to visit their loved ones. That I'd pay money to see. BIG MONEY!

And you guys wring your hands in the back room of the union halls wondering why 88% of the workforce has rejected union membership.

Do you get that the reason you have jobs is because someone buys a ticket?

Do you honestly think that ONE paying customer a few days before Christmas actually gives a fat rats rear end about the CBA?

Or do you think they want to get where they're going in a somewhat timely fashion regardless of the fine points of the US/IAM CBA?

You and by extension the IAM's attitude and approach to these things is one reason why Jerry Glass pummeled you. He had the advantage and he beat you like a red headed stepchild and attitudes like the one you display is one reason why.

Unfreakingbelievable! :down: :down: :down:

Amen to all that!! Any more than the ticketed Pax cares why a plane is broken.........to them, it's just broken and they aren't going to get where they want to, when they want to and they paid for it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The bottom line is this - if the crew of the cancelled flight gets paid there's not a scope violation. Reference the wet lease for European service when the deicing boom failure damaged one of the A330's last winter.

MMW is correct that the company can fly an extra section anytime they want. That is extra flying above and beyond the schedule. It is not flying that "belonged" to one crew being given to another crew.

However, what was done wasn't just merely flying an extra section. It was a replacement for a scheduled flight. That is also within the company's rights in order to "protect the schedule". And the crew scheduled for the original flight is pay protected for that flying if it departs within 4 hours of the original flights scheduled departure time under the East contract.

To allow the company the ability to do this without pay protection for the original crew is to say it's ok for them to play any and all sorts of games with the flying on each side. Things like routinely cancelling flights on one side, furloughing employees, and covering those routes with "extra sections" on the other side.

Jim

 

[N905TW]

The latest from our AWA ALPA this evening is that the pilots ARE in fact being pay protected for these cancellations. No idea if this includes our F/As as well... one would hope so.

Sounds like a win-win situation if our crews are getting paid and our passengers are getting home on time for the holidays...

 

[EricLv2Fish]

The latest from our AWA ALPA this evening is that the pilots ARE in fact being pay protected for these cancellations. No idea if this includes our F/As as well... one would hope so.

Sounds like a win-win situation if our crews are getting paid and our passengers are getting home on time for the holidays...

That's great assuming the FAs will be paid too. Such a quick reponse indicates the company didn't try to get out of paying them?

 

[SegmentKing]

Um... so let me get this straight.

Last month when our MidAtlantic flight cancelled and PSA came in to help, I didn't see any MDA people crying foul over this. the MDA flight was cancelled, we used a PSA jet to fill in and get people out of our station instead of forcing them to overnight.

So I'm wondering if PSA owes MidAtlantic now, basing this on some of the thought processes here on this board.

This violation needs to be tossed.

If a USAirways plane operated an America West flight, as an America West Flight number, then I can see a problem. But if the Cactus flight cancelled and USAir steps in to help, how is this a problem?

When I worked for United Express a few years back, NW went on strike. Air Wisconsin had a couple 146's sittin around and we (well, not WE) flew them to a few of our markets due to extreme overbooking (I remember one Brasilia (30 seats) booked to 94). Should our unions have grieved this, considering we didn't have any Brasilias (or slots for that matter) out of ORD to service these markets?!?!?! We never touched the 146s nor saw them (they were out of the A gates back then)

Please help me understand the "union" way of thinking.... Fellow airline steps in to help during irregular ops, using own flight numbers, handled by own employees... customers got where they needed to get to, and were happy....

 

[PhxMama]

I understand the philosphy of" give them an inch they'll take a mile.", but sometimes we need to just pull together. This is the Holiday Season and the flights are full. I understand theres the CBA and legalities under the contract to consider, but sometimes you make exceptions. I hope when it comes time for contracts DP doesnt remember this! And I am not clear on whether the west f/a's were paid. Is this the issue?( and please forgive my ignorance of the contract.) Merry Christmas and to all a good nite!

 

[stoopidute442]

I elect YOU to go out to the gate and explain to 130 holiday travelers the fine points of the IAM contract and why they have to wait several hours/days to visit their loved ones. That I'd pay money to see. BIG MONEY!

Then we would have another cba violation. That job belongs to the gate agents!

 

[UWCactus]

I know I will be lynched for this but here is my viewpoint:

A plane broke in PHX so a US (east, to be politically correct) plane was used as a substitute. US (east) crews were used to fly this route. Well, they flew this route and were paid to fly this route. Meanwhile, HP crews went nowhere and, thusly, were not paid as they were not flying. Because the aircraft was broken and there were no spares, flight crews were not able to fly and make money which they need to feed themselves and pay rent or mortgage. It is not the fault of the HP crews that the aircraft was broken and there were no spares. This is a SCOPE violation and the crews should be paid for missed time. This is cut and dry and as clear as the nose on your face. -_-

BS....under the AWA agreement, the crew is paid for a cancelled flight just as if they worked the flight.

My understanding is that the flight was operated as a "dual ops" two flights to the same place and the same time. Most likely to cover overbookings, previously cancelled flights (which crews are paid for) and an overall backup of people. This is an unusual situation, the company had the resources to resolve it...this is once again the Phoenix FA union crying foul..over virtually nothing. They are simply try to make their members feel as though they are really trying to accomplish something.