E-190 Preparations...

[BoeingBoy]

Apparently Nicolau has had a change of heart since the Shuttle arbitration. In that decision he dismissed the "pay difference" argument made by the US pilots:

"In the circumstances of this case, placement of Shuttle Captains and First Officers primarily on the basis of pay comparisons ignores basic principles of ALPA Merger Policy, dismisses the concept of comparable aircraft and comparable jobs, harms career expectations and places the hard earned status of those pilots at risk"

However, he did consider like or similiar equipment in his decision:

"While the Parties to this process were at odds on many elements, there is one point of agreement we find significant and determinative. Both Parties recognize that the 727-200 is a Group II aircraft. This leads us to conclude that the Shuttle Captains, who command Group II aircraft, should be placed among the US Airways Group II captains."

Jim

 

[USA320Pilot]

BoeingBoy:

Thanks for taking the time to go to the ALPA Website and review the Nicolau award. As I indicated Nicolau did not give the Shuttle pilots any widebody positions because it was not in their career expectation.

Nicolau said, “The proposed USS (Shuttle MEC) placement of Captains is at a point where circumstances would permit some to gain Group I (B767/B757) seats, a result not within their pre-merger career expectations. Moreover, we cannot accept the argument that 25 of the more senior Shuttle First Officers should be treated as Captains in the list’s construction.â€

Moreover, in your comments you left out that the Nicolau’s opinion and award said, “Both parties recognize that the 727-200 is a Group II aircraft. This leads us to conclude that the Shuttle Captains, who command Group II aircraft, should be placed among the US Airways Captains. That placement, however, should begin, for reasons previously expressed, at a point below the last Group I Captain (Group 1 is B767/B757 Captains).

If Nicolau places the first America West Captain at a point below the last Group I Captain (Group 1 is B767/B757 Captains) like in the Shuttle merger, this would place the first 1,371 US Airways pilot positions based on the permanent bid at the top of the combined seniority list.

Again, I have been told this is the key reason the America West MEC wanted a B757 growth issue settlement, which Baker wrote, “this agreement may be presented by either side in the seniority integrations process as an agreed-upon condition of restriction.â€

Also noteworthy, Nicolau’s comment that “primarily on the basis of pay comparisons ignores basic principles of ALPA Merger Policy†apparently is in regard to like equipment because both parties agreed the 727-200 is a Group II aircraft. Group II aircraft are the parties A320 family, B737, and possibly the 13 America West B757s, which all have the same payrate.

This issue is another problem and fear of the AWA ALPA MEC. A potential AWA ALPA argument that their Group II aircraft pay about 10% more than US Airways according to Nicolau is problematic because “primarily on the basis of pay comparisons ignores basic principles of ALPA Merger Policy.â€

As Ringmauraf indicated at “US the B757 pays the same as the B767, while at HP the B757 pays the same as the A320/B737, which appears to be a problem for the America West ALPA MEC Merger Committee and further supports the US Airways ALPA MEC Merger Committee position.â€

Nobody knows how the Arbitrator will rule this time, but an argument can be made that like with the US Airways – Shuttle merger the US Airways – America West merger “The proposed USS (Shuttle MEC) placement of Captains is at a point where circumstances would permit some to gain Group I (B767/B757) seats, a result not within their pre-merger career expectations.â€

As you know the US Airways pilots were given all of the widebody positions by seniority number with the slotting occurring after the bottom B757 Captain, which if my memory serves me correctly was Chris Beebe.

The fear of the AWA ALPA MEC according to ALPA sources is that this could occur again and is one of the reasons they wanted a B757 growth agreement settlement without a grievance award.

Once again, I find it interesting that you present only part of the Nicolau information, but then again considering your chameleon attitude on this and the ALPA message board I should not be surprised.

By the way, if the member’s of the MEC you support had agreed to management’s initial offer that eventually lead to LOA 93 the US Airways and America West payrates would be virtually equal versus the US Airways pilots working for 10% less than management’s offer.

In my opinion, this would make the pay argument not germane.

Meanwhile, Nicolau will once again get an opportunity to address a US Airways ALPA seniority list per the following schedule:

Mediation Dates: October 16-20, 2006

Arbitration Dates:

December 4-6, 2006
December 11-15, 2006
January 8-12, 2007
January 15-17, 2007
January 22-26, 2007

Did you miss that too?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Freighterguynow]

Good points raised by all.

Both sides bring something to the table (good and bad). I'd prefer a straight date of hire with no complicated fences as a solution. If an AWA 737 CA wants to bid a widebody International slot in PHL then that's seniority - even though he'd never have an expectation of that job premerger.

If you talk slotting or throwing somebody under the bus then we use fences. AWA was a narrow body, domestic airline with a single hub. Fence them IN.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nobody knows how the Arbitrator will rule this time, but an argument can be made that like with the US Airways – Shuttle merger the US Airways – America West merger “The proposed USS (Shuttle MEC) placement of Captains is at a point where circumstances would permit some to gain Group I (B767/B757) seats, a result not within their pre-merger career expectations.â€￾

Interesting that you keep omitting the obvious - the Shuttle pilots had no group I aircraft, so Nicolau slotted them in behing the US group I pilots. The HP pilots are bringing group I aircraft to the merger. I guess calling our 757's "widebodies" is supposed to create a distinction somehow.

I can't quite understand the fascination with the pay difference, either. Nicolau dismissed a much larger pay difference in the Shuttle merger, going instead with comparable equipment (pay groups).

Of course, you logic results in a certain LGA-based A320 captain being ahead of all the HP pilots when the lists are integrated.

As I said before, if one strictly follows the logic of the Shuttle award, Nicolau will put US pilots at the top of the list thru the bottom A330 captain, then slot after that with the possibility of two ratios - one for slotting our 757/767 and their 757 captains and another for the 737/A320. Then basically start over with the F/O's.

After all, our 757 & 767 pay the same and the HP pilots definitely have not only a career expectation of flying group I equipment, they already do fly group I equipment....

Jim

 

[ab320driver]

Given that the entire west operation is responsible for any seniority past last year for the east pilots, it hardly seems unreasonable to give them some percentage of those seats.

Moreover, your analogy only holds in US-East terms. If these guys could hold a 757 seat out west, presumably it would not take 25 years (or whatever the bogey number is) that it would take an East guy to hold the seat (pre-merger).

PLEASE- AWA didn't have the money to buy a Tug, much less an airline. Doogie certainly didn't have the clout to pull this merger off, Lakefield did. If US was in such dire straights, why not wait and buy the assets. Opps, again, no money. AWA saving US? Hardly...

 

[767jetz]

The HP pilots are bringing group I aircraft to the merger. I guess calling our 757's "widebodies" is supposed to create a distinction somehow.

Of course, you logic results in a certain LGA-based A320 captain being ahead of all the HP pilots when the lists are integrated.

After all, our 757 & 767 pay the same and the HP pilots definitely have not only a career expectation of flying group I equipment, they already do fly group I equipment....

Jim

My thoughts exactly. Please keep up the sound logic.

Obviously slotting below the group I aircraft seniority is advantageous to a certain Airbus captain, so his motivation is clear and obvious. (Not surprisingly very one sided.) Of course he tries in vein to hide his motivation behind the false pretense of exposing other people's "true" motivation.

HP pilots already fly 757 (group I type) aircraft. It's that simple. So regardless of pay, it is certainly in their career expectation to fly such aircraft. (consistent with ALPA merger policy.) We all know that pay rates come and go, and no one can predict what pay rates will be negotiated in future contracts. So recognizing equipment types is essential. One could even argue that since US had so few 767's compared to 757's, that the 767 pay is an anomoly, and the whole 757/767 fleet should be a seperate group. Perhaps group I.b or II.b.

Of course any reasonable suggestions that do not conform to his opinion of how the world should be will be attacked and dismissed.

It is also interesting to note that during UA's attempted aquisition of US, this same US captain ignored the fact that flying 777/747 type aircraft was never in HIS career expectation. He fought vehemently against any slotting that considered career expectation or pay rate for that matter... the same principle he now seems to support and defend.

Hypocrite or not? You decide.

And before I get the standard BS from some about coming to the US board, let's be clear... Fair seniority integration is of interest and importance to ANYONE in this industry, from ANY airline.

Keep up the good fight BoeingBoy. 😉

767jetz

 

[xoxo]

At MAA there were alot of FO's who came from Allegheny and they will be happy to fly right seat on the 190. Before they were furloughed from MAA they were concerned if they would ever make it to U since they are at the bottom of the pilot recall list. Well, I have feeling they will be called back in the next 8 to 12 mmonths.So maybe after that they wont have to hire from the streets.

 

[ab320driver]

You are quite correct! Look back and she who rattled the money tree and got the investors involved. The "Wunderkinds" in Tempe DID NOT! It was Good old Mr Lakefield who while not knowing a thing about airlines, he sure did and does know about shaking the money tree.

I got to have a carrier of choice and 35,000 people got to have a job thanks largely in part to the quiet leadership of Bruce Lakefield.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that even now Mr Lakefield has had a hand in renegotiating some of the financing US has done. If you look at how some of those transactions are structured you can almost see his hands all over them.

Piney, you speak the truth! 😀

 

[luvn737s]

You are quite correct! Look back and she who rattled the money tree and got the investors involved. The "Wunderkinds" in Tempe DID NOT! It was Good old Mr Lakefield who while not knowing a thing about airlines, he sure did and does know about shaking the money tree.

I got to have a carrier of choice and 35,000 people got to have a job thanks largely in part to the quiet leadership of Bruce Lakefield.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that even now Mr Lakefield has had a hand in renegotiating some of the financing US has done. If you look at how some of those transactions are structured you can almost see his hands all over them.

So the BOD of the new US Airways demanded that Lakefield remain CEO... oops, I guess not. But at least they demanded that the upper management of the Old US AIrways remain in place..., uh well maybe not. Yeah the money was really attracted by Lakefield's financial quicksand management ability. Maybe they even gave him a bus ticket home.

 

[ab320driver]

So the BOD of the new US Airways demanded that Lakefield remain CEO... oops, I guess not. But at least they demanded that the upper management of the Old US Airways remain in place..., uh well maybe not. Yeah the money was really attracted by Lakefield's financial quicksand management ability. Maybe they even gave him a bus ticket home.

The man is older than the hills. He had no intention of staying on as CEO. I believe big Al was ex- US. Lakefield was not brought on to run an airline, he was brought on to enable future merger financing-- which he did...

 

[careerfurloughee]

Hypocrite or not? You decide.


767jetz

I decided a long time ago.

 

[sharktooth]

So the BOD of the new US Airways demanded that Lakefield remain CEO... oops, I guess not. But at least they demanded that the upper management of the Old US AIrways remain in place..., uh well maybe not. Yeah the money was really attracted by Lakefield's financial quicksand management ability. Maybe they even gave him a bus ticket home.

If Lakefield was hired to "shake the money tree" for the AWA merger then why would one want him around after the announcement? Would not one wish an operations dude to put it all together rather than a "money man"?

and thanks boeingboy for the straight talk on the seniority integration. Seems Mr. "It's a done deal" 320 driver is "protecting" his position again.

While I have yet to see discussion, I wonder how the AWA/AAA seniority integration would best be solved with the idea of another merger down the road, say, UAL?

 

[Elevation]

My thoughts exactly. Please keep up the sound logic.

Obviously slotting below the group I aircraft seniority is advantageous to a certain Airbus captain, so his motivation is clear and obvious. (Not surprisingly very one sided.) Of course he tries in vein to hide his motivation behind the false pretense of exposing other people's "true" motivation.

HP pilots already fly 757 (group I type) aircraft. It's that simple. So regardless of pay, it is certainly in their career expectation to fly such aircraft. (consistent with ALPA merger policy.) We all know that pay rates come and go, and no one can predict what pay rates will be negotiated in future contracts. So recognizing equipment types is essential. One could even argue that since US had so few 767's compared to 757's, that the 767 pay is an anomoly, and the whole 757/767 fleet should be a seperate group. Perhaps group I.b or II.b.

Of course any reasonable suggestions that do not conform to his opinion of how the world should be will be attacked and dismissed.

It is also interesting to note that during UA's attempted aquisition of US, this same US captain ignored the fact that flying 777/747 type aircraft was never in HIS career expectation. He fought vehemently against any slotting that considered career expectation or pay rate for that matter... the same principle he now seems to support and defend.

Hypocrite or not? You decide.

And before I get the standard BS from some about coming to the US board, let's be clear... Fair seniority integration is of interest and importance to ANYONE in this industry, from ANY airline.

Keep up the good fight BoeingBoy. 😉

767jetz

Bravo, 767jetz, Bravo

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Interesting that you keep omitting the obvious - the Shuttle pilots had no group I aircraft, so Nicolau slotted them in behing the US group I pilots. The HP pilots are bringing group I aircraft to the merger. I guess calling our 757's "widebodies" is supposed to create a distinction somehow.

I can't quite understand the fascination with the pay difference, either. Nicolau dismissed a much larger pay difference in the Shuttle merger, going instead with comparable equipment (pay groups).

Of course, you logic results in a certain LGA-based A320 captain being ahead of all the HP pilots when the lists are integrated.

As I said before, if one strictly follows the logic of the Shuttle award, Nicolau will put US pilots at the top of the list thru the bottom A330 captain, then slot after that with the possibility of two ratios - one for slotting our 757/767 and their 757 captains and another for the 737/A320. Then basically start over with the F/O's.

After all, our 757 & 767 pay the same and the HP pilots definitely have not only a career expectation of flying group I equipment, they already do fly group I equipment....

Jim

Oh, come on BoeingBoy, the prior post has about the standard amount of rhetorical duplicity for that you'll find on most internet postings. It's not even that bad. Stop taking the bait. The point is valid. Perhaps his speculation about the outcome based on the evidence is a bit self-serving, but it's not outrageous.

So, maybe the arbitrator will recognize AWA pilot's carrier expectations of surviving with AWA on AWA's 757 equipment which would be the expectation that you'd be basically the same as any pilot flying a narrowbody AWA aircraft, while the LCC pilot's expectation might have been to have reached flying either an A330 or a 67/57 at the higher rate of pay. Is a 757 closer in payload to a 67 or an A321. Couldn't it go either way? You're doing a good job of providing an alternative analysis.

 

[USA320Pilot]

The issue is simple:

Nicolau was selected for this seniority list integration by the strike method with both Merger Committee’s agreeing on the Arbitrator.

For the Shuttle - US Airways integration Nicolau ruled the B757 and the B767 were the same aircraft for seniority purposes. Even though the B757 is technically a narrowbody aircraft at US Airways it is paid at widebody or Group I rates. Again, at America West the B757 is paid as narrowbody.

The US Airways ALPA Merger Committee recognizes this point and so does the America ALPA Merger Committee. My point in this whole discussion is that the primary motivation of the America West MEC in regard to the B757 growth flying is to try and limit their potential seniority integration damage versus obtaining 14 B757 positions.

Again, it’s important to note JR Baker’s letter said, “this agreement may be presented by either side in the seniority integrations process as an agreed-upon condition of restriction.â€

Why? So these positions could be included in seniority list discussions because of the America West pilots fear that the top 1,371 positions could go to US Airways active pilots if Nicolau slots the list again after the bottom US Airways B757 Captain seniority number as of September 27, 2005.

Separately, 767jetz, it’s good to see you back even with your nonsensical comments, which are not germane to the discussion.

I believe your comments are intended to “shoot the messenger†out of anger because after I reported the UCT and then ICT discussions David Brooner told the news media he was interested in buying UAL assets for US Airways. Furthermore, then the news media reported “Project Minnow†discussions happened between the former CCY and WHQ “executive suitesâ€, where US Airways was going to obtain United assets. Did it happen? No and I never said it would, but when would now be a good time to get over this unless you’re still concerned with United’s current poor financial performance and “Project Minnow†discussion could happen again.

If it does how about if this time we call it the “Interesting Project Minnow†discussions or IPW discussions.

Best regards,

USA320Pilot