E-190 Preparations...

[USA320Pilot]

US Airways ALPA MEC code-a-phone update #2 - June 13, 2006

This is Arnie Gentile with a second US Airways MEC update for Tuesday, June 13th, with two new items.

Item 1. Today, MEC Chairman Jack Stephan signed a Letter of Agreement with America West MEC Chairman JR Baker regarding the fair and equitable distribution of growth flying for the three B-757 aircraft recently added to the US Airways fleet.

While this had the potential to be a divisive issue, both the US Airways and America West MECs worked together to hammer out a deal that would secure current 757 positions for US Airways pilots and makes arrangements for America West pilots to capture seven Captain slots and seven First Officer slots after the merger and pursuant to the terms of the combined contract and the merged seniority list. The LOA is posted on the pilots only website under What's New.

The US Airways and America West MECs continue to work towards an agreement for the new EMB-190 flying and through their joint efforts, they are sending a message to management that our pilot groups recognize the importance of solidarity.

Best regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Swaayze]

Potentially the only recalls to the 73/AB fleet will occur in the next 18 months or so. After that current 190 pilots (whether recalls or street newhires) will be unlocked and able to accept any and all 73/AB vacancies. That could prevent recalls to the 73/AB in perpetuity. Bottom line as I see it: unless you are certain you can and will hold a 73/AB vacancy within the first 18 months following 190 recalls, you will most likely be limited to a recall to the 190 for quite a few years.

Why the MEC couldn't propose filling all vacancies in seniority order to include ALL pilots holding a U seniority number (regardless of active vs. furloughed status) I don't know.

 

[Atlantic]

7+7 seats is the staffing of one 757. So 14 west pilots were given 12-14 more years of seniority than they now enjoy. This is not a good omen for east pilots.

 

[Twicebaked]

Any word on where the plane will be based? I hope philly... we need more blocks and i miss my brazilian baby. plus the only f/as that are EMB qualified are mostly based in philly with the recall. i wonder if we have to go through training again? its just a 170 with a window exit they were able to throw my ass on a 757 on june 1st so i dont see why we couldnt do the 190 from day one. how many more pilots and f/as will this bring back? i hope all

Since the 170 is (or soon will be) off the certificate, the aircraft (190)may have to be recertified. That includes proving runs etc. There may be a six month grace period before it comes off once the last aircraft is off the property. Whether you were from MAA or not, you may have to go through training again, as your qualification on the 170 would have lapsed by the time the a/c arrives. Recurrent no-longer offers prior MAA f/a's time on the 170 door.

Further, the 190 will be coming to PHL initially. All flight attendants (system wide) will be qualified on the a/c eventually. It is my understanding the PHX and LAS are the last bases to get trained. That said, I don't bellieve that the West will be getting the 190 anytime soon. It would have to be certified on that cert as well before integration. That is a time consuming and a VERY costly task to do it on 2 certs that will be one in the long run anyway. ???????

 

[ClueByFour]

7+7 seats is the staffing of one 757. So 14 west pilots were given 12-14 more years of seniority than they now enjoy. This is not a good omen for east pilots.

Given that the entire west operation is responsible for any seniority past last year for the east pilots, it hardly seems unreasonable to give them some percentage of those seats.

Moreover, your analogy only holds in US-East terms. If these guys could hold a 757 seat out west, presumably it would not take 25 years (or whatever the bogey number is) that it would take an East guy to hold the seat (pre-merger).

 

[Zarah]

I thought I read somewhere that if the 190 arrives by xyz time that no proving runs would be needed.

 

[algflyr]

I thought I read somewhere that if the 190 arrives by xyz time that no proving runs would be needed.

It's my understanding that proving runs are needed, but if accomplished within a certain timeframe from the 170 leaving the AAA certificate, they could be reduced to 60 hrs.

 

[algflyr]

There will be no hiring off the street until all furloughs are recalled. The only effect of the EMB growth deal is where the recalls go to. Some will likely end up in the West system since some from the West will go to the EMB.

It's important to remember that the purpose of the growth clause is not about fairness so much as it's about preventing the company from whipsawing the pilot groups against one another.

I'm sure we will have new-hires off the street before every pilot is recalled. A furloughed pilot can by-pass recall into the right seat of the 190 indefinetly. Many of our furloughed pilots are working for other airlines and fractionals. I doubt they will accept a recall into the lower paying 190 right seat. Will they come back when the left seat 190 or an AB/Boeing FO slot opens? Who knows, some will, some won't. But once the bottom of the list is reached trying to fill 190 FO positions, They will have to hire off the street...

 

[USA320Pilot]

Most people do not understand the true motivation of the America West pilots on the B757 growth aircraft issue and what is driving their actions. When evaluating the America West ALPA MEC’s true motivation for the B757 growth aircraft pilot positions, the West pilot position has more to do with the seniority list integration than 14 pilot positions in PHL, which will not be assigned “until the first bid pursuant to the terms of the combined contacts and the merged seniority list.â€

According to ALPA president Duane Woerth he believes the Arbitrator already has a position on the America West – US Airways pilot integration award. The Arbitrator who will rule on the case is George Nicolau.

Nicolau is the same arbitrator who provided the US Airways - Shuttle seniority list integration award, which was a slotting integration. The Arbitrator ruled that the Shuttle pilots did not have a widebody “paid†aircraft in their career expectation and indicated pay rates were not a material difference for narrowbody aircraft.

Nicolua’s award gave US Airways pilot’s credit for the widebody’s and about the first 1,000 positions, which was the position of the lowest seniority number, not a position or person, but the lowest seniority number who held the B757. These pilots went to the top of the combined list. Then Nicolau slotted the remaining pilots at about a 20:1 ratio with US Airways pilot’s obtaining 20 positions and the Shuttle pilot 1 position.

If this theory is applied to the America West – US Airways merger on the date the merger was consummated, for math purposes US Airways had about 260 aircraft and America West about 140 (actually 142). 50 of US Airways’ aircraft were widebody (10 A330s, 9 B767s, and 31 B757s) with about 210 narrowbody aircraft.

The most junior US Airways pilot who held the B757 when the merger was completed on September 27, 2005 was 1,371.

Therefore, if the Nicolau US Airways - Shuttle seniority list integration methodology was applied to the America West - US Airways integration the first 1,371 positions would be awarded to US Airways pilots and then a slotting ratio would occur, which would be done by a percentage of narrowbody paying aircraft.

After the 50 widebody paying aircraft are removed from US Airways’ fleet count of 260, the slotting fleet count would be reduced to 210 US Airways aircraft. America West would have 142 aircraft or for math purposes would be about 140 aircraft or a 1.5: to 1 ratio between the two narrowbody fleets. You cannot have 1.5 pilots, thus an argument could be made that the Nicolau award could have a 3:2 slotting ration after the top 1,371 pilots are placed on the top of the combined list like in the last Nicolau award.

With that said, the US Airways ALPA Merger Committee has three key integration points:

Date of Hire.
Protect pre-merger widebody flying.
Attrition–based career expectation (this is a key point due to age 60 mandatory retirement and the average pilot age, which is now about 55 years old)

In my opinion, US Airways ALPA has four important arguments, which have been published by the Merger Committee and give the US Airways pilots a strong position: tenure, 50 widebody to no widebody aircraft, career expectation due to forced attrition by the FAA and mandatory age 60 retirement, and the previous Nicolau award.

Robert Mann has clearly indicated this to the America West MEC and Merger Committee, which is why the B757 growth issue is so important to the Tempe-based MEC.

In JR Baker’s B757 growth aircraft settlement letter, which was singed by Jack Stephen, Baker indicates “this agreement may be presented by either side in the seniority integrations process as an agreed-upon condition of restriction.â€

Why? The agreement is more about seniority list integration precedent versus 14 pilot positions because of the America West pilot fear that the US Airways – Shuttle Nicolau award will be applied to the America West – US Airways pilot seniority list integration.

Also noteworthy, this same sentiment exists within the America West ALPA MEC over the EMB-190 because it provides even more positions to the East pilots going forward.

In my opinion, when you look at the numbers, the America West pilots could do better over the long-haul with a date of hire integration with significant “fences†because most of the US Airways pilots will retire in 5 years. Furthermore, if Nicolau uses a straight slot award based on the numbers I have seen the America West pilots could be looking at a 3 to 1 or even a 4 to 1 slot due to Nicolau's view of the US Airways Merger Committee's key integration points listed above.

Best regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[BoeingBoy]

The only fly in your ointment is that both sides have the 757, which isn't a widebody FWIW. So your theory has HP 757 pilots slotted in with our 737/319 pilots while our 757 pilots slide in somewhere further up (among the true widebody pilots from our side).

So, there's some possibilities:

1 - Somehow separate out widebody pilots (330/767) and use use that bottom seniority number as the start of the slotting.

2 - Slot our 330/767/757 pilots with HP's 757 pilots with one ratio then slot the rest with a different ratio.

3 - Since our 767/757 pay the same, take the bottom 330 pilot and put all our pilots from there up at the top, then slot the remainder.

Of course, none of these possibilities cover the F/O side of the big equipment.

Jim

 

[ringmaruf]

The only fly in your ointment is that both sides have the 757, which isn't a widebody FWIW. So your theory has HP 757 pilots slotted in with our 737/319 pilots while our 757 pilots slide in somewhere further up (among the true widebody pilots from our side).

I think his reasoning is that at US the B757 pays the same as the B767, while at HP the B757 pays the same as the A320/B737.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Well, that really adds some complications ringmaruf. Yes, our 757 pays more than their 757. But then their 737/A320 pays more than our 737/A320.

So maybe it'll be our 330/767/757 pilots, their 757 pilots, their 737/A320 pilots, then finally our 737/A320 pilots. Then start over at the first verse for the F/O's.....

Jim

 

[USA320Pilot]

Ringmaruf, your point is valid, because Nicolau agreed the “reasoning is that at US the B757 pays the same as the B767, while at HP the B757 pays the same as the A320/B737.†Furthermore, it is my understanding this is the fear of the America West MEC and their motivation over the B757 growth issue settlement.

Separately, the recent B757 growth agreement is virtually a non-event because as Baker’s letter indicates the positions are not available for pre-merger America West pilots to bid “until the first bid pursuant to the terms of the combined contacts and the merged seniority list.â€

Thus, after there are combined contacts and the merged seniority list, the B757 positions are for "open" bid, except for 14 protected positions per the settlement.

In regard to pay differences, there was a huge pay difference between the Shuttle pilots and US Airways pilots because the contracts were negotiated about the same time as the "high water" mark with the US Airways pilots at parity 1 and the nparity 2 point. Furthermore, Nicolau indicated pay differences in like equipment would not effect his award. He did single out pay differences between widebody paying equipment and non-widebody paying equipment.

My previous post simply applied the Nicolau US Airways – Shuttle seniority list integration methodology to the upcoming US Airways – America West award. It is my understanding the America West MEC is looking for ways to defeat a seniority list integration similar in scope to the Nicolau US Airways – Shuttle seniority list integration because as Baker said, “this agreement may be presented by either side in the seniority integrations process as an agreed-upon condition of restriction.â€

If the previous US Airways Nicolau award is applied to this merger, the top 1,371 positions would go to US Airways pilots and then there would be slotting thereafter, with “of course, this possibility not covering the F/O side of the big equipment.â€

Best regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[luvn737s]

USA320Pilot-
This ointment could use it's own bug zapper! First, the Shuttle/US solution worked for the merger of a much much smaller airline with a much much larger one. Second, due to disparate staffing formulas, it would be better to bas a slotting solution on total active pilot numbers. Thirdly, you solution assumes that the furloughees are thrown under the bus, which is probably not going to happen. I doubt any west pilots will be taking your advice. Given the desperate condition of U at the point of the merger and the no-bump-and-flush mandate, I think you will see some protection of U wide-body flying and slotting from there on down with no seat loss on the CA side and perhaps some adjustment of bidding position within a fenced base.

Additionally, I would expect that you would see future CA vacancies filled by U pilots displaced to the right seat. Once they have been returned to their seats, then future upgrades will occur based on the new integrated seniority. JMHO, of course.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Luvn737s:

Luvn737s said: “you solution assumes…â€￾

USA320Pilot comments: Luvn737, my posts were not my thoughts on a solution, but simply applying the Nicolau US Airways – Shuttle award to the upcoming seniority list integration to illustrate the America West MEC fear and their motivation in regard to this week's agreement.

Moreover, the point of my post(s) was to identify the true motivation of the America West MEC in regard to the B757 growth issue, not a seniority list integration solution, according to informed sources close to the discussions.

Regards,

USA320Pilot