Downward Spiral?

[Just Plane Crazy]

You must bee the incarnation of “GREEDâ€￾ “SELFISHNESSâ€￾ and “INCOMPETANCEâ€￾![/b][/SIZE][/color]

If NBC would be in trouble like the aviation business they would fire him first. And don’t compare your self or the Pilots in general to one person. Compare your self to all the people that are behind the cameras. Leno would have to be compared to your F/A, since his face is all over and people see him and in an aircraft it is the F/A and not the cockpit.

A Bus driver driving a bus doesn’t make as much as any of you. He works harder endures longer hours, works more and doesn’t live in luxury hotels like you on overnights. All your reasons are arguments why pilots should not be in management or run a company (thanks good there are pilots out there who have their senses in the right spot and know what they do – like JetBlue). With your opinion you drive a company into bankruptcy.

Air travel was meant to be a part of transportation and transportation is inexpensive. If you just want to have high paying customers, start firing 75% of all employees at every airline, reduce aircrafts and outfit them with First Class only.

Economy will hopefully improve and all unemployed employees will get their jobs back. That is not a reason to start being greedy. If there had been some modesty in the first place, many airlines would not be in trouble. Why did JetBlue survive this and is growing, while DL, UA, AA and U are struggling. One of the reasons is because of employees like you.

Reasonable is what the airline can afford without that any one has to stand in a line at the local soup kitchen and doesn’t know how to pay the bills. And don’t tell me that you cant live on less than $300 an hour if others can live on $10.

Go and work the same shifts as the mechanics (also well educated) and live of what they make. You will be surprised what they can do with their income. So don’t complain and start like any addict and go into a rehab. Learn how to be modest, caring and take classes in economics.

JUSTPLANECRAZY

Are you through with your adolescent tirade? Finish rubbing on your pimple cream and take a deep breath.
If you want to engage in debate like an adult you need to learn something. You will maintain a lot more credibility if you stick to the issues and do not resort to name calling. That's what children and liberals do. The obvious point in my last post is that accross most careers, people generally get paid what the market will bear. Of course that amount is often a moving target. In any industry where you have a large group or large groups of generic labor there is always a tug of war between management and labor as far as what that number is, and who should get what piece of the pie that the market provides. When you have a company paying their employees a lot less than others are making to do the same job, it eventually puts downward pressure on everybody. I'm not just picking on Jetblue, they just happen to be the media darlings right now. Also I did not expect them to pay the higher average rates right out of the gate. My desire is to get paid as much as I can and allow my company to profit. There is nothing greedy, selfish or incompetent about that. It's common sense. What that figure is I don't know because it's moving more now than ever. But Jetblue and other "LCC'S" should try and lift their own boat at some point. Thus my question, when will they try and do that. If Jetblue continues to prosper, you are pretty naive if you don't think that the employees eventually will. Just look at the Southwest F/A's.

emily

Don’t throw a stone when you sit in a glass house. You should take a deep breath. Children are innocent and don’t play politics. And the dividing line between liberals and conservatives is very narrow and moves.

I think that JetBlue is going to be the norm every one else will have to be judged against. Every airline that will have higher employee cost will be to high and there will be airlines that will try to beat the benchmark JetBlue is setting. As so many other industries in the last century it is now the time for the aviation industry to engage in a drastic adjustment. It is not the time anymore to ask how much more can I get. Today it is a fact that it has to be asked, what can I do to make my job secure. With your statements you are counterproductive.

And in regard to WN F/A’s, they are creating a problem where there was non. My advice to you is: “Don’t try to fix something that is not broken!â€￾ You only will make it worth.

 

[Ch. 12]

Emily,

The "market rates" (i.e. those established through years of labor negotiations at legacy carriers) are out of sync with the actual market. These reference points continue to climb with every negotiation yet the economy does not follow the same trend in an imperfect world such as ours. When alternatives to travel such as teleconferencing have impacted air travel and multiple recessions over the past couple of decades have decayed airline profitability, these negotiated "market rates" are not aligned with the actual economy and do not allow for profitability.

If your main intention as an employee were to maintain a profitable carrier which will, in turn, add to the longevity of the company and the atmosphere of the workplace, then you would understand that the "market rate" must come DOWN to enable profitability. An airline seat is not as profitable as it once was and therefore the costs cannot remain high. I understand that better salaries will equal a better life for you right now, but the logical choice is to enable the company to be sustainable and provide benefits (and future wage increases) for years to come.

Until recently, WN has been the model for this. Employees understood that there is more "wealth" to be gained from employment than just the hourly rate. That is why there is little turnover there despite lower wages. Would you rather be slightly better off in the bank but not longevity or would you rather have stability and happiness?

Point is that market reference points have become grossly out of line with profits and are not sustainable. LCCs are not in a conspiracy to bring down the industry's wages but rather they recognize what a sustainable rate is.

 

[Farley]

Well said.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

For now, anyway.

mweiss,

I'm not sure if "this' figures into the "equation", but I kinda' think it will.
The feds allowing the "globals" to defer pension monies IMHO(now) makes a company,like AA, MORE dangerous to the LCC's.

NH/BB's

 

[mweiss]

NHBB, in a sense, yes. This is the time when the industry will shake out. Some of the legacy carriers will remain; others will go. Cost reductions will help them remain.

Speaking of that new law, have you noticed how the union employees on the UA board applauded the legislation, while those on the US board have complained? Interesting differences in perspective, there.

 

[skyflyr69]

For now, anyway.

Mweiss: what is your time line for a 'cut" at LUV? you types have been saying this for years and yet LUV pliots haven't taken a cut yet.

 

[mweiss]

Can't say exactly when, but I can tell you what the end-game looks like.

WN's strategy is dependent upon growth, as are all airlines in business today. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, except that we all can agree that the market is finite. This means that the growth must stop at some point. So, let's look at some of the future barriers to growth that WN will face:

1) Domestic saturation. Even if WN flattens everything in its path in this country, eventually there will be no more markets to serve.

2) International travel. WN may start to consider moving into the international space as a means of staving off the troubles in #1. However, that will require fleet changes, which will require increased costs. This will make things more difficult in competing against:

3) Other LCCs. B6, F9, FL, HP, AS, TZ...they're all learning how to play this game very well. Eventually all of these airlines will be competing to varying degrees in most markets. This will start to provide downward pressure, as all of these airlines depend on growth for survival. As they start to get hungry, we'll see another shakeout occur.

When are these things going to happen? Hard to say, because it depends on far too many currently-unknown factors. But I'd say it'd be easy to imagine that happening in the next decade or so.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Can't say exactly when, but I can tell you what the end-game looks like.

WN's strategy is dependent upon growth, as are all airlines in business today. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, except that we all can agree that the market is finite. This means that the growth must stop at some point. So, let's look at some of the future barriers to growth that WN will face:

1) Domestic saturation. Even if WN flattens everything in its path in this country, eventually there will be no more markets to serve.

2) International travel. WN may start to consider moving into the international space as a means of staving off the troubles in #1. However, that will require fleet changes, which will require increased costs. This will make things more difficult in competing against:

3) Other LCCs. B6, F9, FL, HP, AS, TZ...they're all learning how to play this game very well. Eventually all of these airlines will be competing to varying degrees in most markets. This will start to provide downward pressure, as all of these airlines depend on growth for survival. As they start to get hungry, we'll see another shakeout occur.

When are these things going to happen? Hard to say, because it depends on far too many currently-unknown factors. But I'd say it'd be easy to imagine that happening in the next decade or so.

(Believe it or not), my days of "bad mouthing" WN are over !!!!!!!
They are unquestionably a BIG WINNER.

BUT,

I also agree with mweiss that (perhaps) "sooner rather than later", WN probably will be facing some type of inevitable change(s).

This pension relief(by the FEDS) is going to have an "11 th" hour "stay of execution" effect on a few of the Globals.

In a few cases, it could be a down right "aquittal", and I don't see that as being good for the LCC's

(with the help of GOD), finding a total cure for cancer would be easier than for a Global carrier, finding a way to compete with the LCC's domestically.
HOWEVER,

If say AA "and" NW, or DL, or CO, or UA EVER figured out a way TO compete with the LCC's, PLUS their(Global) International systems, that/those carriers would stay on top FOREVER !!!!!!!

But, like mweiss say's, it may only be 1, 2 or mabey 3 globals, that "discover" the "fountain of youth"

NH/BB's

 

[FA Mikey]

JUSTPLANECRAZY

Are you through with your adolescent tirade? Finish rubbing on your pimple cream and take a deep breath.
If you want to engage in debate like an adult you need to learn something. You will maintain a lot more credibility if you stick to the issues and do not resort to name calling. That's what children and liberals do.

Interesting, so what does that make you? A liberal or a child?

 

[Just Plane Crazy]

Can't say exactly when, but I can tell you what the end-game looks like.

WN's strategy is dependent upon growth, as are all airlines in business today. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, except that we all can agree that the market is finite. This means that the growth must stop at some point. So, let's look at some of the future barriers to growth that WN will face:

1) Domestic saturation. Even if WN flattens everything in its path in this country, eventually there will be no more markets to serve.

2) International travel. WN may start to consider moving into the international space as a means of staving off the troubles in #1. However, that will require fleet changes, which will require increased costs. This will make things more difficult in competing against:

3) Other LCCs. B6, F9, FL, HP, AS, TZ...they're all learning how to play this game very well. Eventually all of these airlines will be competing to varying degrees in most markets. This will start to provide downward pressure, as all of these airlines depend on growth for survival. As they start to get hungry, we'll see another shakeout occur.

When are these things going to happen? Hard to say, because it depends on far too many currently-unknown factors. But I'd say it'd be easy to imagine that happening in the next decade or so.

WN will go international that is certain. Their success with flying just one type is the problem for them. At this moment they are showing interest in the B7E7. This would solve the problem but not fast enough. They don’t want to start with one type and then change again in a few years. So my prediction is that WN will either don’t apply for International routes till they get the B7E7 or they will start with routes to Mexico, Canada and the Caribbean, that they can serve with the B737NG. Also they still haven’t tackled the Hawaiian Market.

I think we also will start to see with in the next few years some new LCC’s that will introduce a new area of LCC’s. That will be the time when the current legacy carriers are going to start to consolidate and market their brand names under one umbrella (like the automobile industry). Skyteam = DL/NW/CO; OneWorld = AA/AS; Star Alliance = UA/US.

 

[mweiss]

Crazy,

I've been thinking along similar lines about the brand spectrum (SkyTeam, et al), but there are some issues that must be resolved in order to make it work as effectively as the automobile industry.

When one buys a car, one keeps it for years, and so one is buying into a longer-lasting image than a few hours in a seat. Thus, the differentiation among the brands within an airline company must be crisp, lest the company cannibalize its own sales in other divisions without appreciable acquisition of customers from true competitors.

Furthermore, the markets must be appreciably complete for each brand. Currently, none of the SkyTeam brands serve the West Coast market. Two of them serve the East Coast market well, and two of them serve cross-country well. That doesn't work for the kind of market segmentation you're talking about, where the differentiation is service, not geography.

Finally, this would necessarily mean the end of code-sharing (which, in my opinion, would be a good thing). No more buying a NW ticket and finding out you're on DL metal. Or starting your trip on UA for segments 1 and 4, but US on segments 2 and 3. Code sharing has, understandably, resulted in customer confusion and disappointment.

 

[orangeman]

A question for all? While the 7E7 is being designed and tested, would it not be prudent for Boeing to have different models in mind? The 737 has evolved and is the most widely sold family in commercial history. Perhaps the 7E7 will mirror this. I have heard "rumors" from some pilot coworkers, that WN will be the launch customer for this A/C. I am aware that the projected capacity would require an additional F/A. Hey, as far as many will say, I only serve drinks and pass out peanuts...what do I know 😉
Comments expected!

 

[Just Plane Crazy]

A question for all? While the 7E7 is being designed and tested, would it not be prudent for Boeing to have different models in mind? The 737 has evolved and is the most widely sold family in commercial history. Perhaps the 7E7 will mirror this. I have heard "rumors" from some pilot coworkers, that WN will be the launch customer for this A/C. I am aware that the projected capacity would require an additional F/A. Hey, as far as many will say, I only serve drinks and pass out peanuts...what do I know 😉
Comments expected!

The B7E7 will be manufactured in different configurations. One of the models is for short and medium distance and one for long and ultra long distance.

And yes, WN has shown interest in this aircraft. Having that said, WN will have to depart from its current policy of only flying one aircraft type.

And as for your job, thanks for being there at the front line and keeping the PAX happy. Without the F/A’s an important part would be missing. Have you seen and aircraft full of PAX that have not been given a soft drink etc. Not a pretty sight. 😀

 

[Just Plane Crazy]

Crazy,

I've been thinking along similar lines about the brand spectrum (SkyTeam, et al), but there are some issues that must be resolved in order to make it work as effectively as the automobile industry.

When one buys a car, one keeps it for years, and so one is buying into a longer-lasting image than a few hours in a seat. Thus, the differentiation among the brands within an airline company must be crisp, lest the company cannibalize its own sales in other divisions without appreciable acquisition of customers from true competitors.

Furthermore, the markets must be appreciably complete for each brand. Currently, none of the SkyTeam brands serve the West Coast market. Two of them serve the East Coast market well, and two of them serve cross-country well. That doesn't work for the kind of market segmentation you're talking about, where the differentiation is service, not geography.

Finally, this would necessarily mean the end of code-sharing (which, in my opinion, would be a good thing). No more buying a NW ticket and finding out you're on DL metal. Or starting your trip on UA for segments 1 and 4, but US on segments 2 and 3. Code sharing has, understandably, resulted in customer confusion and disappointment.

mweiss

You have some very logical arguments. Actually, we should start a separate threat for this scenario and maybe build a “Think Tankâ€￾ to evaluate this.

I just imagined the end result and it seamed a very logical one. It will take some time and very clever manipulating for each alliance to make it possible for them to operate in that kind of scenario but it is not impossible. The only problem that I see is that a few good people will loose their jobs, because consolidation of some departments will be the end result.

 

[mweiss]

If you start it, I'll contribute to it. 😉