Don't Let Express Fly The 190's

[Light Years]

I'm not sure how anyone at United can complain as they have allowed the Bae146 for years, and even the CRJ700 long before there was ever a USX plane larger than 50 seats. At least at US, the 50+ jets are all flown by either US Airways mainline employees or wholly-owned subsidiary employees. United contracts all of it out and offers no employment to thier furloughed employees.

The closest thing to a single list is what all of the unions need to shoot for. None of the work groups, or the company, can be productive and get anything accomplished with competing employees in the same classifications.

 

[Oliver Twist]

The only problem is, you've demonstrated willingness to do the job for poverty level wages.

[post="186865"][/post]​

Poverty Wages???? If I recall the article in the paper correctly, the current US Capt makes in the $188,000 range. Take 18+% off that and it's in the $135,000 range. I would think anyone who calls that poverty range is a bit off base.

While I do realize not every pilot for US makes that much to begin with, the percentage who do make that or above the median point outnumbers the ones at the bottom of the scale. If I read correctly, those Mainline pilots who are at the bottom were at $75,000 or so. That cut would be to $58,500+-, again hardly "poverty wages".

Does it make the cuts any less painful? Of course not, it stinks.

The ones at very low wages, too low in my mind are the Express Company Pilots who make $17,000+- to begin with. That wage is way too low.

This is not a slam against Pilots and their wages, rather a reality check from another perspective.

 

[AAviator]

Oliver twist,
that comment was mad by me to WOjetdreamer. If you want a reality check, read the whole thread. Good post you made, but, off base.

 

[Phoenix]

Hey pal just set a precedent and let express fly the 190's. Don't you learn?

[post="186537"][/post]​

Sadly, many pilots think this will help them get hours for a mainline job, but don't understand that it is the equivalent of eating the grain that should be planted to have weat.

IF the 190's go to express noone at the majors flying a 737, DC9 or Airbus is safe from being outsourced by low paying jobs with lousy benefits. THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN HERE!!!!

[post="186537"][/post]​

They don't get it. And neither do many pilots at USAir. They still want to give in to fight another day, not willing to admit that the day to fight has long passed. They have been routed and are now having the silver fillings pulled from their teeth.

If USAir pilots agree to the latest TA, they will have thrown themselves and every other pilot group in the industry under the provervial bus... for the second time. Scabs will have someone to look down at.

Respectfully,

Phoenix

 

[Phoenix]

on the property.

That'll never happen on your property now will it?

[post="186935"][/post]​

MDA pilots actually are able to vote (they are Mainline pilots in everything except pay and benegits).

Who knows if enough pilots will be sacrificed to MDA to were they will actually outnumber the "real" Mainline skirts.

 

[Oliver Twist]

Oliver twist,
that comment was mad by me to WOjetdreamer. If you want a reality check, read the whole thread. Good post you made, but, off base.

[post="187013"][/post]​

I did, and the comment was not necessarily directed at you, but the idea in general. These wages, regardless of what is said about them are hardly poverty wages and yes, each time they agree to another "hit" they "accept" the downward spiral on their w2's. They have a long way to go to get to "poverty level".

The ones I feel are getting the shaft are the Express pilots working for what the government could classify as poverty level wages depending on family/dependant status.

I have always thought that there should be only one group of pilots, they negotiated salaries for airplane types before, why not have one list, one company, and pay rates for everything from a Beech 1900 to an A330 all under the same roof? That way there is but one senority list, everyone begins at the bottom and everyone has a goal to reach, without having to play games and "company jump". Seems to me it would be cheaper, more efficient(sp) and foster a sense of true loyalty to a company and for the pilot, the feeling that he dosent have to start over every time just to advance. The Company would gain a lot from that loyalty as well, ALL the pilots would have an interest in working together instead of the Us/Them mentality like it is now. Customers too would benefit from the true seemlessness between small and large planes of the same company.

I do understand the enormity of the cuts the pilot group has taken in the past few years, but given that amount of cuts and still at $135,000+- tells me there was a great deal of leeway to begin with. Were they overpaid to begin with? Thats not for me to judge, after all the COMPANY signed the agreements too each time a new contract went into effect. Both sides are responsible for the high salaries and the now steep cuts. If I recall the commercial "pay me now, or pay me later", I think "later" is here in spades and it's the pilots who are paying this time.

If I offended you, accept my apologies for it. But anyone who thinks a mainline pilot is at poverty wages is just living on a cloud - a nice cloud mind you.

Peace my friend.

 

[Phoenix]

These wages, regardless of what is said about them are hardly poverty wages and yes, each time they agree to another "hit" they "accept" the downward spiral on their w2's. They have a long way to go to get to "poverty level".

[post="187028"][/post]​

Airline Transport Pilots that have been flying for 15 years usually consider 20K to 30K to be "poverty wages".

Maybe they don't technically meet the definition but if one spends about 25 days a month in a motel to make less than 80K without a relatively reasonable expectation to make 150K+ in about 5 years, then they are desperate or braindead.

There are over 1,800 pilots on furlough at USAir and everyone of them has been offered a job to fly at MDA for about 20K-30K. The overwhelming majority has rejected the offer.

As to the single seniority list... It would be a great idea but Mgt could not profit personally near as much. It will never happen, at least not until the last of Mainline is gone and everyone is flying for 20K-40K!!

 

[Rico]

Rico, compare apple to apples please.

Quit blaming your problems on others. You bought the AE comparison.

Supplement "B" was written into APA's contract during the early 80's It was written for the "unborn" on the property, not the currently living as it is at MDA. It was written to adjust compensation packages to compete with newborn deregulation bred mainline airlines. Unlike MDA, which props up a failed business strategy with lower wages.

"Talk about downward pressure. Midatlantic is nothing but a version of that very same idea YOUR pilot group showed willingness to first allow."

Guess what, the B scale is gone at AA. It went away when the B scalers started to outnumber the A scalers on the property.

That'll never happen on your property now will it?

I am not blaming my "problems" on anyone. I just hate hypocritical-sounding, self-serving statements from people that do not even work for Airways.

Yeah the B-Scale is gone now, but it was a "deal with the devil" your pilot group made in return for the turbo growth promised by Crandall. It created a huge amount of downward pressure on other carriers to follow suit (to compete with American's sudden grab at market share). Years of effort and untold union negotiating leverage was spent to prevent further expansion of the concept into other carriers (with mixed success).

Midatlantic is "part" of Mainline, flown by pilots on the mainline list. But this idea is nothing new. This concept of a "pilot group within a pilot group" can trace it's heritage right back to that very same B-Scale that APA had agreed to.

That is an apple to apple in my book pal, because B-Scalers flying the F-100's at AAL is no different than MDA pilots flying the same sized E-190 at Airways. Your B-Scale might be gone, but you enjoy the benifits of the growth it allowed to this very day, eh?

And that other thing about the "unborn", please... At least MDA is providing jobs to our furloughed pilots, taking care of "born" Airways pilots in some fashion. That is a lot more honorable and does more for our people than APA's willingness to gain at other's expense.

Kinda like , ummm TWA. <_<



But all of this interest in our company, and " drawing lines in the sand" seems a little out of place.

Because before you get further "high and mighty" on us, it was your own "express" (AE) that has led the way into 70 seat RJ's. We have the rates we have now at Midatlantic as a competitive response to YOUR not "drawing a line in the sand" at AAL.

Or,

It might be that you do not like the competitive threat of MDA flying E-170's and E-190's...

Good.

Because I hope that we steal as much revenue and market share from AAL and our other competitiors as quickly as possible before you know what hit you.

Turnabout is fair play. Your B-Scale was used against USAir and others in the past, and your Eagle RJ's have preyed upon our markets in recent times. Now we can let you taste some of your own medicine.

I understand that you would prefer us not to do anything that will make us a stronger competitor. Because you salivate over the possible growth you might see if Airways were to fold instead. Sorry I do not share your enthusiasm. :glare:

 

[FlyUs]

Thanks Rico, I agree with you 100%. The vultures are everywhere!

 

[Rico]

There are over 1,800 pilots on furlough at USAir and everyone of them has been offered a job to fly at MDA for about 20K-30K. The overwhelming majority has rejected the offer.

Ahh, you are a bit off on that. The furloughed pilots returning to MDA sitting right seat get TOS for First Officer pay, which comes out to a little over 36K. That option has not been very popular with the furloughed pilots. Yet recent classes have been filed with furloughees that would rather leave Mesa or CHQ for such.

Furloughed pilots have filled all of the MDA Captain slots, and earn the first year pay on the scale, and that works to about 55K a year. This option has obviously been more popular with the returning furloughees.

Neither is great pay, but a fair bit beter than the 20-30K you mentioned PHX.


But another thing you mentioned was right...

MDA pilots actually are able to vote (they are Mainline pilots in everything except pay and benegits).

Who knows if enough pilots will be sacrificed to MDA to were they will actually outnumber the "real" Mainline skirts.

All of the MDA pilots, both online and those still in training are not probationary pilots. Each has a vote like any other "active" mainline pilot.

So unlike the remainder of the furloughed pilots (who are denied the chance to vote), MDA pilots have an ability to affect the current situation. With around 280 pilots based between PIT and PHL, there is not anywhere near a majority. But it is a sizeable voting block that should already be taken seriously, and could funtion as a "swing vote"...

In the future, especially in smaller councils (or a downsized PIT), MDA pilots might very well outnumber Mainline. Yet I doubt that MDA would ever outnumber Mainline overall. Even so, MDA pilots ARE Mainline pilots, and our long term interests and those of the remainder of the Airways pilot list match up.

 

[luvn737s]

The ones I feel are getting the shaft are the Express pilots working for what the government could classify as poverty level wages depending on family/dependant status.

[post="187028"][/post]​

So what is a pilot who buys his job at Mesa through San Juan College and has 300 hours when he finishes, worth? My first paid flying job didn't pay half of the $17,000 you mentioned, and I had over twice as much time.

 

[Phoenix]

....I doubt that MDA would ever outnumber Mainline overall. Even so, MDA pilots ARE Mainline pilots, and our long term interests and those of the remainder of the Airways pilot list match up.

[post="187074"][/post]​

Thanks for the numbers. 280 pilots out of 1,879 accepted it. My condolences to those who had to, and to those who still think we are going to "fight another day".

If you doubt that the goal is for MDA to BE the ONLY Domestic operation of USAir (and that this TA will put the last nail in the coffin) then Vanna White couldn't help you out even if she gave you all the vowels and the consonants.

 

[markkus757]

I would like to go one step further on the single list idea. I think there should be a national scale, regardless of what airline you work for. Are we all in agreement that most pilots that fly the same type of aircraft with the same years make relatively the same amount now? Why don't we just get rid of the differing scales for each company then? Imagine if ALPA, or CWA, TWU, AMFA would represent all of the labor group. Would they not be able to save on the administrative side of things? What if All pilots had the same medical plan and retirement plan? Would they not save on the theory of economies of scale? I'm not saying that there should only be either the IAM or the AMFA, I'm saying that whoever represents, represents all mechanics or whichever group until voted out. As a person who does not work for an airline anymore, I was able to observe the absurdity of the late 90's rise in labor costs, yet still know enough about the industry to be able to accurately follow the details. I realize that some labor groups went years without a new contract and it was their time to benefit. But what about a federal law mandating arbitration after say 2 years of negotiations without a new contract? What if both sides could stay more current in the argument of pay versus company performance?

Secondly, for anybody who thinks that the industry is going to recover to what it was, you're kidding yourself. Too many people know how to get a better fare the the full ocach fare that a lot of people booked. The high revenue that subsidized most flights does not exist anymore. Wages must adjust in order to break even, let alone make a profit. That high revenue is either flying fractional jets, or buying smarter options and not letting employees take advantage of the perks that used to exist in corporate travel. This is slowly becoming an industry where you will not make a lot of money over your career. The future employees will have to decide if that's enough for them to be happy...........................

 

[autofixer]

Yep, that is how the merchant marine does it. A set rate and you get paid by the tonnage of the ship. It SHOULD be the same with airline pilots...but it never will be.

 

[ZMAN777]

It's only a matter of time until some low cost/low price carrier starts flying transatlantic.
Jay

[post="186464"][/post]​

FWIW,

Look for an airline by the name of "SkyLink Airways" to begin this very thing early next year BWI-Stansted (London) using 767-200ER aircraft. From what I understand they have a pretty aggressive business plan calling for approximately 10 aircraft by the end of 2005 with expansion also calling for flights to Paris/London from JFK and possibly PHL as well. Additional plans have them looking at A330's in 2006!

Time will tell if they will make it but right now they've got access to $$ and aircraft and are busy getting their FAA certification in order. More good news huh?
It's about to get bumpier, seat belt sign on!!!!!

Cheers,
Z B)