Dont be mad at LLCers !

[bagsmasher]

Rampguy,
Yes you are right, I dislike WingNaPrayer. But if you'll notice, I've been ignoring him. Even when I feel like responding, I just move on. Not that he will ever go away, but then there are many on this board that wishes I would go away. I wish I could, but I'm addicted. Is there a support group with a 12 step program for this addiction?
Back on topic, the only LLCer's anyone is mad at are the ones who have support the lawsuits, and constantly whine about having a job with AA.

 

[rampguy]

Sorry, WnaP. You are the one cryyyyyying. But once again, nothing positive from you however post away. Even Bags dislikes you.

 

[FA Mikey]

The IAM is suing AA and APFA asking the courts to set aside the AA/APFA seniorty agreement and give the TW flight attendants super seniority over all the AAers. Compensatory damages. Punitive damages. Attorneys fees and all other costs. Granting any further relief the court may deem proper.

 

[AAFlyBoy4u]

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On 8/21/2002 3:13:58 AM


Why are so many AAers angry with TWAers ? We are not the ones who made the decision to be taken over by AA. We are just trying to survive here. If you want to be angry with someone, take it out on the management team that made this deal, not us please. We dont want to be here anymore than you want us here but we had no vote in this decision. I [we] understand why your angry but please, we now have to work together so get over it and stop treating us like the enemy. ITS NOT OUR FAULT!!!!! Thanks.
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The reason we are mad is because TWA'rs seem to think they deserve everything. Keep in mind that you were BANKRUPT! The employees at AA didn't ask for the purchase of a bankrupt carrier but instead it was thrown in our face. However, we were gradually learrning to deal with it just like Reno and Air Cal. Then we are confronted with 9/11 followed by lawsuits filed against AA and the APFA by your union. Not to mention , the many nasty comments by TWA'rs ( ie. crew vans, and Deadheads on TWA planes which I personally have wittnessed ). Can't TWA be greatful they have a job? Yes the upcoming furloughs are going to impact you guys the most, but isn't that what's fair?

Give me a Break! [:0]

 

[TWAnr]

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On 8/22/2002 127 AM

The IAM is suing AA and APFA asking (for)... super seniority over all the AAers.
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Mikey,

You know that statement is false. The law suit is asking for seniority integration according to the provisions of the Allegheny Mohawk ruling of the Civil Aviation Board.

It is time to stop your campaign of deliberate lies and misrepresentations.

[]

 

[lownslow]

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On 8/22/2002 12:29:09 PM

Can't TWA be greatful they have a job? Yes the upcoming furloughs are going to impact you guys the most, but isn't that what's fair?

It would be what's fair if the furloughs up to now would really be the result of an unforeseeable downturn in the business. However, the latest cuts are ones which needed to be made well before the acquisition. AA was overstaffed before, whether or not AAers want to admit it. From what I understand, even the employees at STL are now getting laid off to be replaced by AAers displaced from other places. Granted, TWA was overstaffed as well (this was one of the factors which hurt them), but the cuts appear to be going too deep into the TWA ranks. These recent cuts would have come completely from AA had the acquisition not occurred, as this was inevitable.

So what do TWAers hear? "Be grateful that you have a job". Well, this round of cuts shows that the AAers should be happy with the acquisition as it is saving *their* jobs as a TWAer is being shown the door instead. And besides, more than half the TWAers don't have jobs to be grateful for. Make no mistake about it, many of those cuts are permanent, and not just temporary furloughs like many employees saw from last fall to this spring. They can't afford to go without a job for as long as it will take to get back on the property.

Now as for the pilots, I think they got a reasonably fair deal. The latest cuts will be hitting the LLC side, but will take pilots back to about 1996 or so. I was in favor of knocking off 5 years or so of seniority from their ranks to protect AAers from furlough when the acquisition was first announced, and these cuts just about match that.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 8/22/2002 127 AM

The IAM is suing AA and APFA asking (for)... super seniority over all the AAers.
----------------

Mikey,

You know that statement is false. The law suit is asking for seniority integration according to the provisions of the Allegheny Mohawk ruling of the Civil Aviation Board.

It is time to stop your campaign of deliberate lies and misrepresentations.

[]
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[/quote]Its a matter of perseption. Being that TWA flight attendants as a whole fit in to the top 30% of our seniority list. It is to the vast majority of us super seniority over the AA flight attendants.

I should have been more clear. I didn't mean to say that a seniority list would be TWA people followed by AA people. Rather that the overwhelming majority of TW people would put AAers back years in seniority. It would make all but a handful of TW crew members safe from any sort of layoff. The AA people would take the brunt while TW people sat free and easy in job security. For having done nothing but staying with the sinking ship called TW.

 

[bagsmasher]

It is the same type of scenerio on the ramp. At MCI we have two Crew Chiefs with seniority before 1970. Then the regular FSC's on the ramp start at 1983 seniority. If TWAer's on the ramp would have gotten 100% seniority, there would now be 12 with pre-1970 seniority. So 10 of the top 12 would be TWA. I guess we are just jerks to not let all the LLCer's go ahead of us.

 

[rampguy]

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On 8/21/2002 11:16:30 PM

Rampguy,
Yes you are right, I dislike WingNaPrayer. But if you'll notice, I've been ignoring him. Even when I feel like responding, I just move on. Not that he will ever go away, but then there are many on this board that wishes I would go away. I wish I could, but I'm addicted. Is there a support group with a 12 step program for this addiction?
Back on topic, the only LLCer's anyone is mad at are the ones who have support the lawsuits, and constantly whine about having a job with AA.
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We agree on this one, I too, will ignore the ------- because I know he loves fanning the flames and snickers. He loves to hide in his annonimity.

 

[WingNaPrayer]

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On 8/22/2002 3:12:36 PM

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On 8/22/2002 128 PM

FAMikey wrote:

It would make all but a handful of TW crew members safe from any sort of layoff. The AA people would take the brunt while TW people sat free and easy in job security. For having done nothing but staying with the sinking ship called TW.
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And that about sums the whole thing up quite nicely if you ask me. There is no way the acquisition employees should be able to sit back and coast on the jobs that were worked for by the AA employees. In every company, it's last hired/first fired (furloughed, laid off, whatever), it's always been that way.

I would like any TWA acquisition employee to justify it any other way. None who have complained here, or elsewhere, has yet to offer up one iota of reasoning behind their belief that they are entitled to bring their years with them from their failed company.

Everyone working for a company has a hand in it's successes, or it's bankruptcy. Sure, they all say they were doing a bang up job, but if such were the case, we'd still see the TWA jets in the air instead of being stripped for someone else's logo. I've heard enough from the LLC folks, because the more they talk about what they think they deserve, the more their greed shows through, not to mention a hefty dose of stupidity as well.

 

[TWAnr]

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On 8/22/2002 3:12:36 PM
Its a matter of perseption. Being that TWA flight attendants as a whole fit in to the top 30% of our seniority list. It is to the vast majority of us super seniority over the AA flight attendants.

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Two points:

First, that is not what you wrote. Super seniority specifically provides for persons with fewer years on the job to be senior to all those with more years, which is exactly what you implied by your claim: "super seniority over all the AAers." Mind you, not some AAers.

Second, the law suit is not asking for date of hire. Most disputes, arbitrated according to the provisions of the Allegheny Mohawk ruling, resulted in ratios or dovetailing the seniority lists. One such prime example is the IAM/TWU arbitration.

As for me, I am tired of all this bickering. Banging my head against the wall, or this monitor, is more productive than these tired old disputes. We are exactly where we were twenty months ago, when this all started. I am done with this debate, although I do reserve the right to correct blatant flame baiting falsehoods.

 

[FA Mikey]

TWANR:
Super seniority specifically provides for persons with fewer years on the job to be senior to all those with more years, which is exactly what you implied by your claim: "super seniority over all the AAers." Mind you, not some AAers.

Then in a way that is correct. A tw flight attendant with 1 year at AA, bidding with 40 years of seniority built up at a company that no longer exists. Wow how fair is that.

TWANR:Second, the law suit is not asking for date of hire. Most disputes, arbitrated according to the provisions of the Allegheny Mohawk ruling, resulted in ratios or dovetailing the seniority lists. One such prime example is the IAM/TWU arbitration.

Its asks to set aside the agreement reached between the APFA and AA. You know the company who bought the assests of bankrupt TW and the union and members of the people who already work here. It doesn't say anything about Allegany/Mohawk, dovetailing or the foolish TWU in the closing. I guess the idea is to try to convince a jury. The people who originally took jobs here at AA. There seniority, built up here, should not count. Yet let the seniority built by the people offered jobs in the TW BK fire sale. There seniority should count. Of course at the expense of the people who have worked here for years.

Which still isnt enough. They want to extract all the fee's for this frivolous lawsuit paid back to them, attempt to get punitive and compensatory damages. As well as any other moneys they may try to convince the court to give them. I see the goal here is to Bankrupt the AAer's union, as well as punish the company who bought them and gave them work. What a classy group and organization.

 

[FibberMcGee]

a

 

[Winglet]

If LLCers want to "move on," they ought to stop their lawsuits, political endruns, and whinging PR spectacles in STL. Until then, they will just become more and more marginalized while their numbers steadily decline. You're right, it's time to move on . . . . don't tell AAer's . . . tell those LLC STL people that just can't get connected with reality.

 

[FibberMcGee]

a