Disgruntled Employees

[Bob Owens]

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On 5/12/2003 2:32:32 PM Segue wrote:

Some from my personal aqaintences. Both over different time frames.

1) Computer programmer (dotcom bust)
2) Medical doctor (managed healthcare)
3) Steel worker (lost job due to overseas competition)
4) Middle level manager (reorganization)
5) Management consultant (slowdown in business)

I''ve got more, but get the picture?

Keep yourself diversitfied. Develop multiple skill sets. Move to another industry if you can.

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Wrong. You can only move so much. The answer is the same as it was 100 years ago, if you are going to work for others you must Organize!

While we already may be unionized we are not organized. We dont belong to labor unions we belong to business unions. They are more concerned about the bottom line of the business than the welfare of the members.

We need to go back to basics. When the government and industry conspire to defraud us we withhold our labor. If we all did it at once what could they do?

KCFlyer and Segue, are you ready to Fly or fix aircraft? Will you pass the criminal backround, drug, alcohol and all the other tests required to be a pilot or mechanic? Are you liscenced and trained?

 

[Wild Onion]

I''m sick and tired of listening to you all whine. Someone tries to point it out and that person is acused of being anything from anti-american to a flat out member of Al-Qaida or whatever (which I am not).

You guys are just flat out wrong. The FAA exists to make sure our flights are safe. We don''t need $250K airline pilots. Should I fear for my life when I get on an Eagle flight just because the guy flying it makes $25K? We don''t need mechanics that make $100k a year (or whatever it is they make). A wheel came off a WN flight? So what? I remember seeing an F100 sitting on a wing at DFW a couple of years ago. It goes around.

The free market will dictate prices and wages. You don''t like it? Tough, move to Cuba or North Korea.

You want to make a living wage? Then find a career and a skill set that demands it. I''m sorry that you can''t continue to ride the airline gravy train, but life sucks. Go get a medical technician degree. Get microsoft certified. Do something. My resume is going back out with my professional degree proudly listed right at the top.

 

[High Iron]

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On 5/13/2003 12:08:58 AM Wild Onion wrote:

I'm sick and tired of listening to you all whine. Someone tries to point it out and that person is acused of being anything from anti-american to a flat out member of Al-Qaida or whatever (which I am not).

You guys are just flat out wrong. The FAA exists to make sure our flights are safe. We don't need $250K airline pilots. Should I fear for my life when I get on an Eagle flight just because the guy flying it makes $25K? We don't need mechanics that make $100k a year (or whatever it is they make). A wheel came off a WN flight? So what? I remember seeing an F100 sitting on a wing at DFW a couple of years ago. It goes around.

The free market will dictate prices and wages. You don't like it? Tough, move to Cuba or North Korea.

You want to make a living wage? Then find a career and a skill set that demands it. I'm sorry that you can't continue to ride the airline gravy train, but life sucks. Go get a medical technician degree. Get microsoft certified. Do something. My resume is going back out with my professional degree proudly listed right at the top.

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Yes Mr. Oligarchy, vent vent vent. But seriously, I really don't believe that you actually feel that way, but that you are merely attempting to be contrary.

 

[Wild Onion]

Nope, you''re wrong. I really feel that way.

Just posting for the sake of being contrary woouldn''t be enough of a challenge considering some of the posters on this board.

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 5/13/2003 12:08:58 AM Wild Onion wrote:


"You guys are just flat out wrong. The FAA exists to make sure our flights are safe."


Are YOU SERIOUS!!! The FAA is a POLITICAL ENTITY.


"We don't need $250K airline pilots. Should I fear for my life when I get on an Eagle flight just because the guy flying it makes $25K?"

OK you are showing your "blissfulness". Why should we pay doctors 200K when there are residents (some very close to the end of residencey and very experienced) who are willing to work for 30-40K a year. Is it POSSIBLE that they are willing to work for those wages ONLY because of the potential for FUTURE earnings. A new hire guy at a regional makes less per per week than the fry guy at Micky D's, despite his expensive education.


"We don't need mechanics that make $100k a year (or whatever it is they make). A wheel came off a WN flight? So what? I remember seeing an F100 sitting on a wing at DFW a couple of years ago. It goes around."

May you get the level of MX you are willing to pay for. then maybe your kids will just remember you as the cheap SOB who died blissfully. Paul wellstone figured he could cut corners on his travel budget to.

"The free market will dictate prices and wages. You don't like it? Tough, move to Cuba or North Korea."


THIS IS NOT A FREE MARKET! THIS INDUSTRY IS EXTENSIVELY REGULATED! The free market partially existed BEFORE 911. You know, back when AMR was OFFERING it's pilots 50% more pay than they get today. I guess since you are so intuned with the "free market" you prob think the families of all the firemen and police officers killed on 911 shouldn't have gotten anything from the government, after all, they "knew the risks" "they were willing to take that risk for the compensation". Or maybe when a natural disaster happens and wipes out a farm, that farmer knew the risk, let the "free market" work. Of course about every 5 years 1/3 of the population would starve, but hey, let the free market work. Tornado in Kansas? They should have known better than to build in the path of that tornado. You know Onion, it's comical to see a freshman econ C student (or was it technical school?) like yourself try to expound on the virtues of a "free market" BTW, WTH pays it's mechanics 100K? At the peak of industry wages, an UAL mech made about 70K while having to work in locals like SFO. If you are willing to drive over an hour to work, you can find a 1500 SF home for around 600K, but the nieghborhood may be a little rough.

"You want to make a living wage? Then find a career and a skill set that demands it. I'm sorry that you can't continue to ride the airline gravy train, but life sucks. Go get a medical technician degree. Get microsoft certified. Do something. My resume is going back out with my professional degree proudly listed right at the top."


Save your lectures please. I am on leave from my airline (haven't flown the friendly skies since before christmas), and don't plan to go back. I currently make significantly more than I did, even under C2K. I just have enough brains to know that there need to be well compensated, highly trained individuals flying my family around the world. I'd gladly let you get exactly what you paid for, but unfortuanately, a fully loaded 747-400 weighs around a million pounds and carries a BUNCH of gas, so your stupid decisions would likely have adverse consequences for others on the ground.

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Ignorance is Bliss

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 5/12/2003 2:25:48 PM KCFlyer wrote:

Couldn''t help but respond, but if Bob Dole had his druthers, he''d have been on an ADM Gulfstream piloted by those "Wellstone wannabes".

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Wellstone got the cheapest of the cheap. I''m sure it would be pretty offfensive to the ADM flight department to make that connection. Some corporate flight depatments DO pay a lot to get professionals

Ignorance is Bliss

 

[texflyer]

I,or we the customer are your boss. You may not like it,fine,someone will form an airline that meets our needs (Jetblue comes to mind). That is the free market. SWA employees may make the same as you do NOW,but I doubt you ar as efficient as they are (per SWA).

Please spare me the elitist,"we want to be treated with respect",code for leave our salaries alone. Fine,but the market dictates that something must be done.........It appears many employees here ALONG with management just want to stick their heads into ground hoping it just passes over.

 

The problem with some ...and I stress some not all of our Union people is that they think that they are better than everyone else. I am not blind AA is not here to make me happy they are here to make their board and shareholders money and that is the bottom line. I am here do do my best and be rewarded when the company can do it. I am not stupid enough to hang around if the company starts making money and does not share.

Busdrvr if you are saying that you would not be a safe pilot if you got paid less than you are a disgrace to your profession. Do not give me the crap about being a Naval Academy or Airforce Academy graduate who spent 15 years in the military gaining expierence. The people of the united states paid for that education and that flight training. Spare me. I respect all of our armed forces but dont ever cram that crap down my throat.

 

[Ch. 12]

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On 5/13/2003 9:48:29 AM Busdrvr wrote:

OK you are showing your "blissfulness". Why should we pay doctors 200K when there are residents (some very close to the end of residencey and very experienced) who are willing to work for 30-40K a year. Is it POSSIBLE that they are willing to work for those wages ONLY because of the potential for FUTURE earnings.
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Ok. There is only so much that one can read about one person''s feelings that everybody (government, management, McD''s fry guys) is out to get them. You often make analogies that are weak to say the least and quickly dismiss -without evidence - the claims of others. Your reference to doctors and residents is an excellent example. The healthcare industry, though in troubled times, is still operating well UNDER capacity. The need for healthcare is much higher than the supply. On the other hand, due to a chain of unfortunate events over the past few years, the airline industry is grossly OVER capacity. When rules are in place to limit the number of layoffs/furloughs, etc, then how can any airline afford to pay surplus pilots?

So no...nobody is out to "get" you, busdrvr. You have to realize that every group has it''s objectives. An airline NEEDS to be profitable, a pilot WANTS to be rich. Without first fulfilling the airline''s need, it is impossible to fulfill the pilot''s want.

Oh...and by the way...the use of "blissful" is getting quite tired. Please rest it for one or two posts.

***I would like to apologize to others in the profession as this post is solely directed to busdrvr''s comments and in no way conveys my thoughts on all other pilots. I respect the profession and it''s unfortunate that some of the loudest voices are also some of the most destructive.***

 

give me a break JFK bound. read the entire post...it was not directed at you it was directed at busdrvr. I am trule greatful for the freedom i have and for the men and women that supply it for me. (the US armed forces) These management bean counter pukes are the ones keeping your employed. You my friend are very very ignorant to think that anyone owes you anything. You went to a military academy for what reason. And you got what you wanted. So why does the rest of the free world have to hear you whine about it. Did you or did you not know that going to the Naval Academy or airforce academy could put you at risk in a hostile environment. Or was it a surprise. Like I said I have a Naval Grad for a nephew who was flying out in the persian gulf for the Iraq War. I am extremly proud of him and all of the rest of the guys. Just not the men and women that thjink I owe them something

 

[JFKbound]

"Do not give me the crap about being a Naval Academy or Airforce Academy graduate who spent 15 years in the military gaining expierence. The people of the united states paid for that education and that flight training. Spare me. I respect all of our armed forces but dont ever cram that crap down my throat."

No sir, it is YOUR crap that you can spare ME!!! As a graduate of one of the afore mentioned institutions it is obvious that you do not have a CLUE what that education is about! I PAYED back every DIME of that education during the next thirteen years as I risked EVERYTHING in the defense of this country. Don''t give me YOUR crap about "respecting" the armed forces. You management bean counter PUKES do not know the meaning of the word.

 

[Wild Onion]

I''ll stack my educational credentials up against anyone on this board. I hold 2 bachelor degrees and I have a post graduate degree from a top 10 university in my field.

Busdrv - You''re picking the wrong intellectual fight.

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

I'll see your degree and creamer, and raise you a thousand hours of community service and Diet Coke by the half-gallon...

I'd venture to say that a veteran cop in Los Angeles, New York, Washington, or any other city with a gang or drug problem is just as deserving of our respect as a career pilot in the armed services...

Do those retiring cops get to walk into six figure jobs, too? Or is defending our streets really not as important as defending our borders?


Then again, why is this even an issue?...

 

[Connected1]

I used to drink half-and-half by the quart.

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 5/13/2003 12:12:20 PM Ch. 12 wrote:


"Ok. There is only so much that one can read about one person''s feelings that everybody (government, management, McD''s fry guys) is out to get them."

Where do I say ANYBODY is out to get me?

"You often make analogies that are weak to say the least and quickly dismiss -without evidence - the claims of others. Your reference to doctors and residents is an excellent example. The healthcare industry, though in troubled times, is still operating well UNDER capacity. The need for healthcare is much higher than the supply."

You ARE kidding aren''t you? I can make a call right now and hav an appointment tomorrow morning. It is pretty slick though how Dr''s have been smart enough to control supply instead of price (ala OPEC). ALPA, AMFA, APA and the IAM could learn a lot.

"On the other hand, due to a chain of unfortunate events over the past few years, the airline industry is grossly OVER capacity. When rules are in place to limit the number of layoffs/furloughs, etc, then how can any airline afford to pay surplus pilots?"

Where do I say Airlines should pay "surplus pilots"? Do you read before spewing? I actually think instead of giving airlines any money, congress should have cut supply post 911. restricted ALL airlines to 80-85% pre-911 capacity (and phased out over the next three years with the ability to speed up the phase out) to be used WHEREEVER the airlines wanted to. wouldn''t have costed the Taxpayer a dime, and airlines would still likely have a reserve of capacity for when or if the demand came back quickly (it is a lot tougher to build back the networks than you think). Most airlines would still be profitable, pension funds wouldn''t be dealing with defaults on bonds and Boeing would still be cranking out new jets.

"So no...nobody is out to "get" you, busdrvr."

Where again did I say anybody was "out to get me"?

"You have to realize that every group has it''s objectives. An airline NEEDS to be profitable, a pilot WANTS to be rich. Without first fulfilling the airline''s need, it is impossible to fulfill the pilot''s want."


Uh DUH! If you have read my posts in the past, you would have seen that I have been highly critical of the IAM for not comming to the table MUCH earlier (pre-BK by at least 6 months) and readily acknowledge the need for pay concessions in the abscence of capacity controls.

"Oh...and by the way...the use of "blissful" is getting quite tired. Please rest it for one or two posts."

OK, would you rather me just say you''re ignorant?

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Ignorance is Bliss