Did everyone leave?

[WeAAsles]

🤣👎

I have to wonder how much money Lee Seeham made putting together and sending out this offer after only 4 months of negotiations? You absolutely know he had his hand in it and got PAID….

AMFA

www.amfanational.org

 

[swamt]

Just a side note to say I'm genuinely surprised AMFA is on Medium.

Agree Kev. I too was surprised. But at least being a no vote, it was a very overwhelming NO vote meaning the membership is united on their very first contract vote which is very good for a better results to come out next time. Usually, first timer members voting on their first contract get's closer to mid ranges, so glad to see the unity of the membership. I also have no clue if the AMFA nego cmte was suggesting either a yes or no vote. Just because they came to a T/A doesn't mean they agreed with the full offer, just means they were giving the membership a "say so" rather to get back to the table. By bringing an offer out to the membership allowed the membership to see the entire offer and not just the highlighted bullet points the co. was trying to sell to them, now they seen all of it in writing. Will be interesting to see what the membership says are the required changes needed to get a passing vote.

 

[swamt]

Lee is a great friend of mine and I really need to call him and see how he is doing. Super good guy.
As far as amfa, in organizing, they do far better with less, than the iam. But the iam/aflcio is far far far greater politically and amfa has failed to understand this and rejected key techniques to push them to victory. I even reached out to amfa a couple years ago when it was organizing AA. It had a window of a couple months to get a signup in some fleet service crafts that the company claimed was mechanic craft. I knew dozens of deicers and lav guys who would have signed. I had them lined up. But the lead amfa organizer wasnt a professional and very arrogant and said he will be fine and get them booted from the list. I liked the guy but he has personally screwed up the AA amfa drive twice now because he simply doesnt listen and he thinks he knows stuff that he has zero clue on. Long story short, they ended up less than 50 cards short. Out of 1400 fleet, no way I could have got him tons but i had key guys that could have easily got him 300.
Im ready to retire and im alot more laid back now but if the amfa had iam smarts and politics, and if the iam had a more personable amfa organizing campaigns and got rid of the curbside 9 to 5 awful techniques then both unions would be incredibly successful inorganizing the industry targets.

I agree BOTH sides do need improvements when it comes to organizing.

 

[swamt]

True

. I really like the direction that the iam is headed in but they decided to keep the same terrible organizing techniques. Just awful still. They will never get JB or delta with such awfulness but JB and DL deserve a voice. Sad. Same ole curbside organizing.
I set up the entire initial strategy of airtran, ua ramp, ua pax and it was so successful but everybody fell all over themselves for credit and to do so they stepped all over me and another. Im ok with it all, and in a twisted way, it all worked out with the right leadership in place but now its back to dopey organizing. JB will never be organized under current iam organizing. And the IAM never ask how. So, its just going to continue being yearly signups. Lol. At least the JB and DL employees thankfully have an iam commitment. Even awful organizing drives make management back off a bit. Kudos to the iam for endless support.

Lee is a great friend of mine and I really need to call him and see how he is doing. Super good guy.
As far as amfa, in organizing, they do far better with less, than the iam. But the iam/aflcio is far far far greater politically and amfa has failed to understand this and rejected key techniques to push them to victory. I even reached out to amfa a couple years ago when it was organizing AA. It had a window of a couple months to get a signup in some fleet service crafts that the company claimed was mechanic craft. I knew dozens of deicers and lav guys who would have signed. I had them lined up. But the lead amfa organizer wasnt a professional and very arrogant and said he will be fine and get them booted from the list. I liked the guy but he has personally screwed up the AA amfa drive twice now because he simply doesnt listen and he thinks he knows stuff that he has zero clue on. Long story short, they ended up less than 50 cards short. Out of 1400 fleet, no way I could have got him tons but i had key guys that could have easily got him 300.
Im ready to retire and im alot more laid back now but if the amfa had iam smarts and politics, and if the iam had a more personable amfa organizing campaigns and got rid of the curbside 9 to 5 awful techniques then both unions would be incredibly successful inorganizing the industry targets.

So for clarification Tim, is IAM trying to organize at Delta and JB for what group? Fleet??
AMFA actually has a current drive at JB for their Mechanics. Surely they both are not doing the same groups

 

[swamt]

Just a side note to say I'm genuinely surprised AMFA is on Medium.

Sorry Kev., forgot to attach the AMFA release of the Horizon vote:

• PRESS RELEASE: AMFA AIRCRAFT MECHANIC AND RELATED PROFESSIONALS OVERWHELMINGLY REJECT TENTATIVE AGREEMENT WITH HORIZON AIR ​ Updated On: Mar 15, 2022 For Immediate Release Contact: Phone: Email: Bret Oestreich, National President (720) 744-6629 [email protected] AMFA Aircraft Mechanic and Related Professionals Overwhelmingly Reject Tentative Agreement with Horizon Air CENTENNIAL, CO – March 15, 2022 – Today, Horizon Air (QX) Aircraft Maintenance Technicians (AMTs), Fleet Service, and Aircraft Cleaners overwhelmingly rejected a tentative agreement put forward for a ratification vote. According to the union’s National Executive Council, they believe the group rejected the contract because the economic package falls short. In the next week, AMFA will survey the membership to confirm the reason for this anticipated rejection of the tentative agreement (TA). “The AMFA Mechanic and Related employees deserve a compensation package that reflects their value and relevance at Horizon Air. With the shortage of AMTs and competitiveness in the industry, it’s justifiable to be rewarded for their selfless efforts and contributions to the continued success of the Company, especially during the previously turbulent years,” said AMFA National President Bret Oestreich. “Horizon Air has major problems retaining qualified, skilled, and tenured Technicians while trying to adequately staff positions throughout the system. This is not the time to disregard the value of skilled professionals and missing an opportunity for the Company to be an innovator in negotiations affecting the industry. Meanwhile, Horizon has never been in a better environment to reward the AMTs, Fleet Service, and Aircraft Cleaners. We know it, and our members know it. It’s time the Company recognizes the for their skillset, loyalty, and hard work of these groups.” “AMFA has been in negotiations with Horizon for more than four months, and Horizon believed by giving time for money on the front end, the Mechanics and Related would be satisfied enough to ratify the TA, anticipating fewer senior employees would ‘chase the carrot,’” said Oestreich. “The results of this referendum make it crystal clear that Horizon failed and confirms how out of touch Horizon management is with their devoted and proficient employees. This membership unity was an impressive 86% participation and this group overwhelmingly rejected the TA with 93% of the members voting to reject the deal.” # # # The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association is a craft oriented, independent aviation union representing licensed and unlicensed technicians and related employees actively involved in the aviation industry. These technician and related employees work directly on aircraft and/or components, support equipment, and facilities. AMFA is committed to elevating the professional standing of technicians and to achieving progressive improvements in wages, benefits, and working conditions of the skilled craftsmen and women it represents. For more information about AMFA visit www.amfanational.org.

Safety in the Air Begins with Quality Maintenance on the Ground​

 

[WeAAsles]

 

[JimmyBop]

Sorry Kev., forgot to attach the AMFA release of the Horizon vote:

• PRESS RELEASE: AMFA AIRCRAFT MECHANIC AND RELATED PROFESSIONALS OVERWHELMINGLY REJECT TENTATIVE AGREEMENT WITH HORIZON AIR ​ Updated On: Mar 15, 2022 For Immediate Release Contact: Phone: Email: Bret Oestreich, National President (720) 744-6629 [email protected] AMFA Aircraft Mechanic and Related Professionals Overwhelmingly Reject Tentative Agreement with Horizon Air CENTENNIAL, CO – March 15, 2022 – Today, Horizon Air (QX) Aircraft Maintenance Technicians (AMTs), Fleet Service, and Aircraft Cleaners overwhelmingly rejected a tentative agreement put forward for a ratification vote. According to the union’s National Executive Council, they believe the group rejected the contract because the economic package falls short. In the next week, AMFA will survey the membership to confirm the reason for this anticipated rejection of the tentative agreement (TA). “The AMFA Mechanic and Related employees deserve a compensation package that reflects their value and relevance at Horizon Air. With the shortage of AMTs and competitiveness in the industry, it’s justifiable to be rewarded for their selfless efforts and contributions to the continued success of the Company, especially during the previously turbulent years,” said AMFA National President Bret Oestreich. “Horizon Air has major problems retaining qualified, skilled, and tenured Technicians while trying to adequately staff positions throughout the system. This is not the time to disregard the value of skilled professionals and missing an opportunity for the Company to be an innovator in negotiations affecting the industry. Meanwhile, Horizon has never been in a better environment to reward the AMTs, Fleet Service, and Aircraft Cleaners. We know it, and our members know it. It’s time the Company recognizes the for their skillset, loyalty, and hard work of these groups.” “AMFA has been in negotiations with Horizon for more than four months, and Horizon believed by giving time for money on the front end, the Mechanics and Related would be satisfied enough to ratify the TA, anticipating fewer senior employees would ‘chase the carrot,’” said Oestreich. “The results of this referendum make it crystal clear that Horizon failed and confirms how out of touch Horizon management is with their devoted and proficient employees. This membership unity was an impressive 86% participation and this group overwhelmingly rejected the TA with 93% of the members voting to reject the deal.” # # # The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association is a craft oriented, independent aviation union representing licensed and unlicensed technicians and related employees actively involved in the aviation industry. These technician and related employees work directly on aircraft and/or components, support equipment, and facilities. AMFA is committed to elevating the professional standing of technicians and to achieving progressive improvements in wages, benefits, and working conditions of the skilled craftsmen and women it represents. For more information about AMFA visit www.amfanational.org.

​

Safety in the Air Begins with Quality Maintenance on the Ground​

How cute. Bring a TA back, say your proud to put it out, then when it fails, blame the company. This Bret is a dope.

 

[WeAAsles]

How cute. Bring a TA back, say your proud to put it out, then when it fails, blame the company. This Bret is a dope.

Definitely sounds like to me from reading this that they were proud to send it out. Notice how they wrote “With the assistance of Legal” I’m telling you over and over AMFA is nothing but a shell organization for the Seeham Group to bilk money from the uneducated.

Thank God the TWU is starting a card drive at SWA to give those workers the quality representation they deserve. I’m sure those Horizon people are calling TWU right now too.

 

[topDawg]

Wow man I never remember you being so angry in the past. You write like someone has been pissing in your corn flakes or something? You find your wife cheating with someone she clearly thought was happier than you seem to be these days?

BTW you STILL STILL STILL haven’t touched that Seeham bank account routing number that starts with the letters AMFA yet?

Hey man do you need to get in the last word here cause I really don’t want to help the owners of this page resuscitate the dead ad revenue. I really do have better things to do and only dropped into this thread to say hello to Tim Nelson.

Go ahead and give me some more Blah Blah Blah if you need to. Boring…..

because I don't give a **** about it. Frankly, I don't know even what the hell you are talking about.

but you still haven't addressed American's continuing to outsource even with record profits.


Oh and BTW, rumor mill says Delta is about to get an overhaul deal with CFM for the LEAP. Hell the way things are looking TechOps will probably end up doing more of your work than you do.

I still don't get why TWU/IAM "leadership" haven't pushed for more MRO and/or component work. or maybe they have and can't figure out how to sell it correctly. I dunno...



The idea of choice gets lost on a lot of people. Too many on here are stuck in binary thinking. It's a symptom of a larger problem, and a big part of why old guard unions are struggling in a time when they should be enjoying a renaissance.

I could've left, too. The Early Out was there for me. Or I could've taken a leave... Or I could've just thrashed and wailed about what I couldn't control. Doesn't mean I was happy about the hour cut; only that it worked out well for me in the end.

point blank, they are stupid.
Unions in this country, for whatever reason, are way too dumb to grasp the concept. Delta is making enough money on 3rd party work now that they don't pay for maintenance plus make a profit.

I will say United is making a push into some MRO markets. I wouldn't be shocked at all to see them end up as an overhaul shop for a next gen engine in the future.

I havent seen an effective organizing drive at delta for the ramp. Mechanics could also be interested.
But dont you think layoffs are coming? I wonder if these airlines can stay out of bankruptcy?
When do they start asking for paycuts?
Members wanna know.
Fwiw, i like our fleet contract and imo i dont think we should give up cuts at least or until in bankruptcy or in 2 years w a buyout that i can take! Lol. Bias indeed!

not really. Its not really any better at the union carriers vs Delta. If any of the unions could make drastic pushes for scope, pay, work rules and benefits, you'd see drives at Delta.

I have long said if Delta's mechanics go union, it will be an in-house union. Even then, I find it really unlikely.

as for layoffs. At American? probably. Frankly I will be shocked if you guys don't have to do another round of bankruptcy.
but Delta is fine. They are hiring like crazy. (at least for TechOps).

It's quite hilarious that you focus on past issues at AA but when the NWA strike is brought up you pivot to no longer want to bring up the past. Bottom line is that today SWA has almost as many planes as does AA and has a trivial amount of AMTs in comparison. And will NEVER have what they should under AMFA.

when have I ever done this?
the NWA strike saved aircraft maintenance in this country. Had AMFa agreed to what NW wanted without the strike United and American would have done the exact same Now I get that you and WeAAsles are incredibly desperate to end aircraft maintenance in this country, but most of us aren't.
But its pretty clear you two literally have no idea what you are talking about, so frankly the lack of understanding of the NWA strike is not surprising. Neither of you seem to even be able to figure out how negative numbers work so.......

Uh yea. Even you know that the RR program ended “after” people began returning to flying and “after” you were forced to give your Company back around $17,000 in pay and benefits.

Hey but I’m really happy you got to play with your kids and ride your bicycle during that time. Who needs $$ anyway right.

BTW in my Station they gave us an extra “paid” day off each week for about 3 Months. So I only had to go into the Airport for 32 hours a week and still got paid for 40 hours. Sorry 😢 you can’t say the same.

Now run off and carry some more water for management for your pat on the ***.

*checks Delta's balance sheet* huh
*checks American's balance sheet* 😮

I hope you saved that 17,000 bucks you made over Delta employees. With your unions, you'll need it badly when American goes back into bankruptcy.
That is, if they don't just completely outsource you.


BTW Delta's employees were able to get unemployment benefits.

 

[WeAAsles]

because I don't give a **** about it. Frankly, I don't know even what the hell you are talking about.

but you still haven't addressed American's continuing to outsource even with record profits.


Oh and BTW, rumor mill says Delta is about to get an overhaul deal with CFM for the LEAP. Hell the way things are looking TechOps will probably end up doing more of your work than you do.

point blank, they are stupid.
Unions in this country, for whatever reason, are way too dumb to grasp the concept. Delta is making enough money on 3rd party work now that they don't pay for maintenance plus make a profit.

I will say United is making a push into some MRO markets. I wouldn't be shocked at all to see them end up as an overhaul shop for a next gen engine in the future.

not really. Its not really any better at the union carriers vs Delta. If any of the unions could make drastic pushes for scope, pay, work rules and benefits, you'd see drives at Delta.

I have long said if Delta's mechanics go union, it will be an in-house union. Even then, I find it really unlikely.

as for layoffs. At American? probably. Frankly I will be shocked if you guys don't have to do another round of bankruptcy.
but Delta is fine. They are hiring like crazy. (at least for TechOps).

when have I ever done this?
the NWA strike saved aircraft maintenance in this country. Had AMFa agreed to what NW wanted without the strike United and American would have done the exact same Now I get that you and WeAAsles are incredibly desperate to end aircraft maintenance in this country, but most of us aren't.
But its pretty clear you two literally have no idea what you are talking about, so frankly the lack of understanding of the NWA strike is not surprising. Neither of you seem to even be able to figure out how negative numbers work so.......

*checks Delta's balance sheet* huh
*checks American's balance sheet* 😮

I hope you saved that 17,000 bucks you made over Delta employees. With your unions, you'll need it badly when American goes back into bankruptcy.
That is, if they don't just completely outsource you.


BTW Delta's employees were able to get unemployment benefits.

Man you really did get bitter and angry 😡 in the last couple of years. Was 2020 kind of rough for you?

BTW I hope you don’t mind if I listen to these people over some guy who thinks he’s the top dawg on an almost dead blog site. Sorry.

American Airlines Group Inc. (AAL) CEO Doug Parker Presents at J.P Morgan 2022 Industrials Conference (Transcript)

American Airlines Group Inc. (NASDAQ:NASDAQ:AAL) J.P Morgan 2022 Industrials Conference March 15, 2022 10:30 AM ET Company Participants Doug Parker - Chairman and CEO Derek Kerr - CFO...

seekingalpha.com

And all the rest including the Good, the Bad and the Ugly is covered here.

https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/node/38821/html

 

[Kev3188]

I set up the entire initial strategy of airtran, ua ramp, ua pax and it was so successful but everybody fell all over themselves for credit and to do so they stepped all over me and another.

We had it in the bag until the GL decided they could read the room better than actual DL employees. Lot of hangers-on hoping for a cushy spot in MD decided they knew what was best and ran right over people that had actually been doing the work. Clearly turned out great...

So for clarification Tim, is IAM trying to organize at Delta and JB for what group? Fleet??
AMFA actually has a current drive at JB for their Mechanics. Surely they both are not doing the same groups

No IAM drive whatsoever at DL currently.

I have long said if Delta's mechanics go union, it will be an in-house union. Even then, I find it really unlikely.

Same for ACS.

But its pretty clear you two literally have no idea what you are talking about, so frankly the lack of understanding of the NWA strike is not surprising. Neither of you seem to even be able to figure out how negative numbers work so.......

Some things never change...

 

[JimmyBop]

because I don't give a **** about it. Frankly, I don't know even what the hell you are talking about.

but you still haven't addressed American's continuing to outsource even with record profits.


Oh and BTW, rumor mill says Delta is about to get an overhaul deal with CFM for the LEAP. Hell the way things are looking TechOps will probably end up doing more of your work than you do.

point blank, they are stupid.
Unions in this country, for whatever reason, are way too dumb to grasp the concept. Delta is making enough money on 3rd party work now that they don't pay for maintenance plus make a profit.

I will say United is making a push into some MRO markets. I wouldn't be shocked at all to see them end up as an overhaul shop for a next gen engine in the future.

not really. Its not really any better at the union carriers vs Delta. If any of the unions could make drastic pushes for scope, pay, work rules and benefits, you'd see drives at Delta.

I have long said if Delta's mechanics go union, it will be an in-house union. Even then, I find it really unlikely.

as for layoffs. At American? probably. Frankly I will be shocked if you guys don't have to do another round of bankruptcy.
but Delta is fine. They are hiring like crazy. (at least for TechOps).

when have I ever done this?
the NWA strike saved aircraft maintenance in this country. Had AMFa agreed to what NW wanted without the strike United and American would have done the exact same Now I get that you and WeAAsles are incredibly desperate to end aircraft maintenance in this country, but most of us aren't.
But its pretty clear you two literally have no idea what you are talking about, so frankly the lack of understanding of the NWA strike is not surprising. Neither of you seem to even be able to figure out how negative numbers work so.......

*checks Delta's balance sheet* huh
*checks American's balance sheet* 😮

I hope you saved that 17,000 bucks you made over Delta employees. With your unions, you'll need it badly when American goes back into bankruptcy.
That is, if they don't just completely outsource you.


BTW Delta's employees were able to get unemployment benefits.

OK Genius.

 

[swamt]

We had it in the bag until the GL decided they could read the room better than actual DL employees. Lot of hangers-on hoping for a cushy spot in MD decided they knew what was best and ran right over people that had actually been doing the work. Clearly turned out great...



No IAM drive whatsoever at DL currently.



Same for ACS.




Some things never change...

Ok, thx for the clarification Kev. Kinda what I thought.
I too never see Delta Mechanics going union, but if they did, I also see them going with an in house rather than typical existing union representation. I definitely see them doing the class and craft route but from within house not an outside entity IMO.
From some of you answers it sounds as the yahoos are bringing up decades old news from long, long ago. Correctomendo, some things never change when they have nothing.

 

[WeAAsles]

Ok, thx for the clarification Kev. Kinda what I thought.
I too never see Delta Mechanics going union, but if they did, I also see them going with an in house rather than typical existing union representation. I definitely see them doing the class and craft route but from within house not an outside entity IMO.
From some of you answers it sounds as the yahoos are bringing up decades old news from long, long ago. Correctomendo, some things never change when they have nothing.

Well thank goodness you have us on ignore then so we don’t get smacked down again and again by your sheer brilliance, 😂.

 

[topDawg]

Man you really did get bitter and angry 😡 in the last couple of years. Was 2020 kind of rough for you?

BTW I hope you don’t mind if I listen to these people over some guy who thinks he’s the top dawg on an almost dead blog site. Sorry.

American Airlines Group Inc. (AAL) CEO Doug Parker Presents at J.P Morgan 2022 Industrials Conference (Transcript)

American Airlines Group Inc. (NASDAQ:NASDAQ:AAL) J.P Morgan 2022 Industrials Conference March 15, 2022 10:30 AM ET Company Participants Doug Parker - Chairman and CEO Derek Kerr - CFO...

seekingalpha.com

And all the rest including the Good, the Bad and the Ugly is covered here.

https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/node/38821/html

nope. 2020 was just fine for me. I'm not bitter and angry at all. I do find it laughable how little you know about your own airlines, contract and apparently basic math. Which is fine (i mean, its not, you really should educate yourself, not just for you but for airline industry employees every where. Maybe even help educate them on the absolute screw job the TWU/IAM is running and make actual positive change)

and you are going to listen to Doug, not a bad idea if you take into other factors. I listen to all the CEOs. I also have the education and intelligence to look at things like earnings, balances sheets, costs etc etc. Here is the cool thing about math, you can try to spin it as much as you want, but 2+2=4. Every time. Yesterday, tomorrow, today, forever.

and American's balance sheet is atrocious. Almost every performance number (both operationally and financially) are also atrocious as well.

PS, what no commit on Delta getting ready to have yet another next gen engine in-house but yet American is gearing up to outsource every next gen engine they have? Or are you going to just post more random negative **** about AMFA while acting like the TWU/IAM/IBT etc haven't done anything wrong ever with money.

OK Genius.

Far from it, but i clearly do know a lot more about it than either of you.

Well thank goodness you have us on ignore then so we don’t get smacked down again and again by your sheer brilliance, 😂.

uhhhh. again. You are struggling with how basic percentages and positive/negative numbers sooooo. Might wanna settle down glass house.