Delta, pilots reach contract deal early

[topDawg]

Correct. Or lost some benefits altogether.

Kev you can't be right. You make it sound as if southwind and his normal "Unions suck" crap could be wrong.

Oh well, maybe one day Kev. I guess thats my hope, get some of the old guys out of Atlanta and keep growing in the North and maybe one day.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev you can't be right. You make it sound as if southwind and his normal "Unions suck" crap could be wrong.

Lol.

Let's just say the pre-packaged talking points that some of our coworkers parrot run counter to reality.

Oh well, maybe one day Kev. I guess thats my hope, get some of the old guys out of Atlanta and keep growing in the North and maybe one day.

It's an uphill climb to be sure, but nothing's impossible.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Yes and what is funny is when the numbers are ran Delta can park a good bit of a t-tailed fleet without dipping below the limit. They are going to end up with little to no growth, write it down that I said this.

Once again DALPA screwed its members, for short term gains and long term losses. To bad this one will likely hurt TechOps. Loss of CF34 work, likely loss of JT8D-219 work and unlikely no chance in hell of the BMW engine coming in house or (gasp) 717 HMVs. Sad day, but I quit having hope in ALPA a long time ago.

Mexico TechOps should be loving this though. More Delta work and getting less pay. Yeah Baby! (also WT I bet you had one hell of a party when it passed.)

There is ALWAYS the fear that DL could shrink... but the simple facts are that DL has reduced its own workforce LESS than its peer network carriers during the past 10 years which have been nothing short of HORRIFIC for airline labor as BK laws have decimated network carrier employee numbers, salaries, and benefits.
Let's not forget that DL started business outside of the ranks of the big four US network airlines - of which AA and UA were part of - and DL did not have access to any of the key global networks given to other US airlines - as PA, NW, BN, and TW all had. DL has grown its network and its business almost entirely from slow, deliberate growth and by running a good business - and DL employees have fared as well as or better than their peers at other network airlines.
An accurate assessment of where and what DL will do in the coming years must be viewed within the perspective of what has occurred over the past 80 plus years.
The slot swap at NYC, a likely joint venture over the Pacific, equity stakes in Latin American carriers all will help build on the network DL has built. Throw in the fact that DL is well-prepared to execute another merger or acquisition while AA and UA still have major restructuring and integration tasks ahead of it and DL is likely to participate in initiatives that will further consolidation, enhancing DL's network, and its revenue generating capabilities.
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All of that might sound like corporate double speak until you consider that DL has used its mergers and acquisitions to create revenue better than what its peers have promised and has done it - most importantly - by creating and retaining jobs for DL employees.
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We can point to maintenance as an example that matters to you. DL had the 2nd lowest level of outsourcing among its network carrier peers - and we really have no idea where AA will end up in 5 years w/ respect to outsourcing.
DL might lose some of the CRJ engine maintenance but the chances are quite high that DL will do some of the work on the 717 fleet in-house, simply because DL has demonstrated that it can do alot of things cheaper and faster - and to higher quality - than by outsourcing. I hope like heck that AA's philosophy of keeping work here proves to be true because it will validate that US workers CAN successfully compete w/ foreign workers.
As you well know, DL's maintenance capabilities from a facilities standpoint is stretched... it is very possible that future consolidation and the 717 deal will provide reason for DL to invest in new in-house maintenance capabilities.
DL has consistently said that the Mexico maintenance JV will help bring work done overseas back to the N. America and allow DL and AM to bid for maintenance contracts that DL cannot win because it cannot cost effectively do airframe overhauls - but AM can. DL has also said that it will double MRO revenues (which amount to 1/4 of the total value DL spends maintaining its own fleet) - so the notion that DL Tech Ops employees will lose jobs seems a little hard to believe.
,
Throughout the company, the 717 deal will result in more flying and ground support being done by DL mainline employees than at its peer network carriers, many of whom are pushing to outsource more flying even as DL has reduced its DCI flying faster than its domestic mainline flying.
DL pilots recognized that the new contract presented a small increase in pay and flying compared to the alternative of potentially waiting years for a new contract through traditional negotiations and provided the opportunity to codify some of the scope limits on DL's outsourcing of domestic and int'l flying; the new contract has more restrictive scope provisions than the previous contract.
.
While we all would like to see the total number of jobs increasing, the simple fact is that capacity throughout the industry has plateaued and is decreasing as oil prices force ticket prices up and demand down at the same time that consolidation is removing unneeded capacity. It is those carriers that can maintain and grow their networks even while adapting to the new realities of high-priced jet fuel and persistent anemic economic conditions in much of the world that will win in the marketplace - and secure long-term futures for their employees.
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We've heard the fears about how DL would outsource more and more jobs throughout the company and that DL employees would fare worse than their peers at network carriers, esp. those who are represented by unions.
The fact is that DL employees do more of their own work in-house than their peers at their network peers and DL employees do make as much or more than their peers at other airlines.
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I suppose DL could all of a sudden decide to change its strategies and manage its employees like what other network carriers are doing- but its track record and current actions don't indicate that will happen.

 

[topDawg]

lol alright here we go.

There is ALWAYS the fear that DL could shrink... but the simple facts are that DL has reduced its own workforce LESS than its peer network carriers during the past 10 years which have been nothing short of HORRIFIC for airline labor as BK laws have decimated network carrier employee numbers, salaries, and benefits. ​ hmmm well how about this number, 10,000. you know what that number is? I'll let you take a guess.
Let's not forget that DL started business outside of the ranks of the big four US network airlines - of which AA and UA were part of - and DL did not have access to any of the key global networks given to other US airlines - as PA, NW, BN, and TW all had. DL has grown its network and its business almost entirely from slow, deliberate growth and by running a good business - and DL employees have fared as well as or better than their peers at other network airlines.​ err...what? Is that wee have less time off, way more work sent out, four outsourcing companies owned buy Delta air lines, higher health care cost, less 401K match etc?
An accurate assessment of where and what DL will do in the coming years must be viewed within the perspective of what has occurred over the past 80 plus years.​ie butt rape employees
The slot swap at NYC, a likely joint venture over the Pacific, equity stakes in Latin American carriers all will help build on the network DL has built. Throw in the fact that DL is well-prepared to execute another merger or acquisition while AA and UA still have major restructuring and integration tasks ahead of it and DL is likely to participate in initiatives that will further consolidation, enhancing DL's network, and its revenue generating capabilities. ​and no one will get to move because Delta hasn't grown in year.
.
All of that might sound like corporate double speak until you consider that DL has used its mergers and acquisitions to create revenue better than what its peers have promised and has done it - most importantly - by creating and retaining jobs for DL employees.
.​errr.....huh?
We can point to maintenance as an example that matters to you. DL had the 2nd lowest level of outsourcing among its network carrier peers - and we really have no idea where AA will end up in 5 years w/ respect to outsourcing. ​errrr huh? Delta+NWA is right there with United in work sent out
DL might lose some of the CRJ engine maintenance but the chances are quite high that DL will do some of the work on the 717 fleet in-house, simply because DL has demonstrated that it can do alot of things cheaper and faster - and to higher quality - than by outsourcing. I hope like heck that AA's philosophy of keeping work here proves to be true because it will validate that US workers CAN successfully compete w/ foreign workers.​right, which is why they are building hangars in Mexico and dumping hangars in the US. good call.
As you well know, DL's maintenance capabilities from a facilities standpoint is stretched... it is very possible that future consolidation and the 717 deal will provide reason for DL to invest in new in-house maintenance capabilities.​and gold bricks will begin to fly out of my a$$
DL has consistently said that the Mexico maintenance JV will help bring work done overseas back to the N. America and allow DL and AM to bid for maintenance contracts that DL cannot win because it cannot cost effectively do airframe overhauls - but AM can. DL has also said that it will double MRO revenues (which amount to 1/4 of the total value DL spends maintaining its own fleet) - so the notion that DL Tech Ops employees will lose jobs seems a little hard to believe.​BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yeah BABY. Hell as long as it isn't growth in China its a WIN.
​WT you #fail. once again. 10,000. figure it out.
,
Throughout the company, the 717 deal will result in more flying and ground support being done by DL mainline employees than at its peer network carriers, many of whom are pushing to outsource more flying even as DL has reduced its DCI flying faster than its domestic mainline flying.​stop smoking so much. Delta can do 100% of the 717 work out of house if they want. Nothing points to them adding AMTs or rampers with the added 717s.
DL pilots recognized that the new contract presented a small increase in pay and flying compared to the alternative of potentially waiting years for a new contract through traditional negotiations and provided the opportunity to codify some of the scope limits on DL's outsourcing of domestic and int'l flying; the new contract has more restrictive scope provisions than the previous contract.​right, they sold SCOPE down the river again because they didn;t want to wait for a better contract. You call it smart because your love the company. I say they are idiots. I bet you would have been pissed had they went on strike during BK too.
.
While we all would like to see the total number of jobs increasing, the simple fact is that capacity throughout the industry has plateaued and is decreasing as oil prices force ticket prices up and demand down at the same time that consolidation is removing unneeded capacity. It is those carriers that can maintain and grow their networks even while adapting to the new realities of high-priced jet fuel and persistent anemic economic conditions in much of the world that will win in the marketplace - and secure long-term futures for their employees.​Is Delta about to start making fuel? and guess you have been under a rock bro, Delta is about to take a loss on hedges.....again. (think someone at the GO will be losing a week of vacation for that? my guess is no)
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We've heard the fears about how DL would outsource more and more jobs throughout the company and that DL employees would fare worse than their peers at network carriers, esp. those who are represented by unions.​10,000
The fact is that DL employees do more of their own work in-house than their peers at their network peers and DL employees do make as much or more than their peers at other airlines.​what are you smoking? Delta has more outsourced ramp, more outsourced MX, more Outsourced flying and more codesharing than any US airline.
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I suppose DL could all of a sudden decide to change its strategies and manage its employees like what other network carriers are doing- but its track record and current actions don't indicate that will happen.​like giving them more time off, lower health care cost, more 401K etc. etc? Im down for that.

alright, try again WT.

 

[topDawg]

Lol.

Let's just say the pre-packaged talking points that some of our coworkers parrot run counter to reality.



It's an uphill climb to be sure, but nothing's impossible.

its so sad that some people are happy being on the bottom and then when people want to make things better they come up with "well leave". *sigh*

 

[WorldTraveler]

Dawg,
first of all, the sum total of DL employees does not constitute what is done in maintenance or on the ramp.
With the 717, a lot more DL FAs will be onboard DL aircraft than exists today. DL pilots will fly more DL aircraft than exists today. And while you and the naysayers of the pilot deal want to argue that DL COULD cut the mainline fleet and still keep the ratios that the pilot contract entails, the simple fact is that there are mainline DL vs DCI ratios for all DCI aircraft types that never existed before.
You do realize that DL employees ground handle DCI flights in many cities, including a couple of the largest hubs, plus a bunch of spoke cities - so, yeah, the 717 deal may not mean more jobs for DL ACS employees. You've already acknowledged that DL mechanics repair many DCI aircraft. How many of your mainline mechanics do maintenance on their regional carrier fleets?
You can argue that with no scope, DL could cut the number of mainline employees, but do you realize that NW had the highest productivity - ie lowest number of employees per mainline seat miles flown of ANY of the network/legacy carriers in the early 2000s, long before the AMFA strike and NW's BK. UA and US laid off far more mainline jobs than largely non-union DL. The notion that union contracts have retained jobs for mainline employees is simply not supported by evidence. The evidence is quite strong that DL looks for the lowest costs and greatest productivity from every source, and very often DL employees can successfully compete with both foreign labor and its domestic regional partners. The fact that DL is reducing the percentage of regional carrier flying while other carriers continue to outsource is proof of that.
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There was an interesting comment made on one of the pilot chat forums. Even some of the dissenters to the pilot contract acknowledged that the TA would likely pass.... and more significantly, they noted that the dissenters on the chat forums do not represent the majority of employees. Given that the TA passed, that would bear out. Given that all of the large non-pilot workgroups chose not to unionize, would validate that the vast majority of employees don't believe that union contracts would necessarily yield a better result.
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Benefits THROUGHOUT American business are decreasing, health care costs are soaring - and Washington can't figure out how to address the problem, yet more and more jobs are returning to US shores.... my suggestion to you is to address the political arena which influences so much of what affects your salary and compensation. Delta is simply responding to the marketplace for labor, in wihch you participate. Don't forget that the US is about mid-tier among industrialized countries w/ respect to unemployment which is at record levels worldwide, makiing it alot more difficult for labor to make any gains. With 25% of Spaniards and Greeks out of work and their economies a wreck, it is hard to think Americans will make a whole lot of progress on lifting wage rates, given that you work for a global company in a global economy.
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[southwind]

Josh--

Our base rates increased, but overall compensation did not.

Let me get this straight !

We got a raise, but overall , we didn't get a raise !

Last time I checked "Base Rate" was part of "Overall Compensation"!

And everyone needs hope, but in reality, unions are a thing of the past and represent a grand total of 7% of the American workforce. Company's are going to open new businesses in "Right to Work" States, where employees are not forced to pay dues, to an outside source, in order to secure a job !

But...........there is always hope !

 

[Kev3188]

What part are you struggling to grasp? I didn't get a "raise" at all, but rather a partial restoration to the amount I'm paid per hour. And while the hourly wage itself may have increased, it is more than offset by increased costs in other areas and/or loss of other benefits. An increase in overall compensation (or total compensation, if you prefer) did not occur for me on 7/1...

 

[737823]

What part are you struggling to grasp? I didn't get a "raise" at all, but rather a partial restoration to the amount I'm paid per hour. And while the hourly wage itself may have increased, it is more than offset by increased costs in other areas and/or loss of other benefits. An increase in overall compensation (or total compensation, if you prefer) did not occur for me on 7/1...

Not sure why people some people have a difficult time grasping this concept. The hourly wage has increased but changes to benefits have offset the increase. Kev, what are you comparing your current overall compensation to? Legacy PM-NW agreement? Pre NW BK? Since the election results were upheld?

Josh

 

[southwind]

Don't fret ! When your Presidents healthcare scheme kicks in, I'm sure you'll save money !

BTW............what did your previous union get you, besides bought out ? Oh and didn't you and the FA's get a "PAY RESTORATION" when the union was kicked out ? Why in the hell did you need that pay restoration in the first place if you had union representation ! Apparently you took "PAY-CUTS" while being represented by a union...WTH Dude ?
What is AA's union doing for them right now ?
What did AMFA do for the NW mechanics ?
I have yet to see "ANY" benefits to being a union member , in the last ten years !
And you or anyone else have yet to convince me and others that the only thing coming from union representation is money from your pockets !

Day of the union is dead............move on already !

Wisconsin anyone ?

 

[737823]

Don't fret ! When your Presidents healthcare scheme kicks in, I'm sure you'll save money !

BTW............what did your previous union get you, besides bought out ? Oh and didn't you and the FA's get a "PAY RESTORATION" when the union was kicked out ? Why in the hell did you need that pay restoration in the first place if you had union representation ! Apparently you took "PAY-CUTS" while being represented by a union...WTH Dude ?
What is AA's union doing for them right now ?
What did AMFA do for the NW mechanics ?
I have yet to see "ANY" benefits to being a union member , in the last ten years !
And you or anyone else have yet to convince me and others that the only thing coming from union representation is money from your pockets !

Day of the union is dead............move on already !

Wisconsin anyone ?

1) I don't work for DL or anyother airline for that matter
2) Never been a union member and don't have any intention of joining one


Josh

 

[TechGuy107]

What part are you struggling to grasp? I didn't get a "raise" at all, but rather a partial restoration to the amount I'm paid per hour. And while the hourly wage itself may have increased, it is more than offset by increased costs in other areas and/or loss of other benefits. An increase in overall compensation (or total compensation, if you prefer) did not occur for me on 7/1...

Kev3188,

What costs increased 7/1 that will offset your pay increase? As far as I know, my payroll deductions on 7/15 will be the same as on 6/30 (except for 401k and taxes).

 

[700UW]

Put NW job losses in there and the job losses under the 9.5 program.

And DL outsources their heavy checks.

And the NW employees faired way better in chapter 11 than their non-union DL counterparts, we have been over this before.

‘‘Delta Airlines sends the majority of wide-body HMV to facilities in the Far East to take advantage of lower labor costs’’ (M.Beadle, personal communication, February 9, 2011). Narrow body HMV work tends to stay in the Western
Hemisphere, with MRO providers in Central America playing a significant role; lower labor costs and shorter ferry flights contribute to cost savings.
Delta 48%(2005) 73%(2006)72%(2007) outsourcing percentages of DL maintenance.

 

[southwind]

Put NW job losses in there and the job losses under the 9.5 program.

And DL outsources their heavy checks.

And the NW employees faired way better in chapter 11 than their non-union DL counterparts, we have been over this before.

‘‘Delta Airlines sends the majority of wide-body HMV to facilities in the Far East to take advantage of lower labor costs’’ (M.Beadle, personal communication, February 9, 2011). Narrow body HMV work tends to stay in the Western
Hemisphere, with MRO providers in Central America playing a significant role; lower labor costs and shorter ferry flights contribute to cost savings.
Delta 48%(2005) 73%(2006)72%(2007) outsourcing percentages of DL maintenance.

Yes, Delta outsourced HMV,s because they are very labor intensive and "DO NOT" make money ! Once the hangers were empty, they insourced work from "Other" airlines that actually "Make Money" ! HMV's, PSV's, Mod's. OT out the a$$, in the hangers , thank you very much. This does not include the millions engine maint. has insourced for quite some time now. Nothing like running a company to actually make money......is there ?

No matter what-ever ratio you want to use, 48% 73%, or 72% , being outsourced, the number of employees , at tech ops, is approx. 20% fewer employees from 15 years ago.

Maybe you need to find the percentage of "Insourced" work, compare it to the percentage of outsourced, then come up with a more accurate number, because your way off base at 73% Dude !

 

[Kev3188]

Not sure why people some people have a difficult time grasping this concept. The hourly wage has increased but changes to benefits have offset the increase. Kev, what are you comparing your current overall compensation to? Legacy PM-NW agreement? Pre NW BK? Since the election results were upheld?

Josh

In general, I'm referring to Pre-Bk. You could, however, use anyone of the three timelines you listed, depending on what variable you wanted to discuss.

P.S. I know we don't agree on the way forward for labor in America, but I appreciate you getting my point.

Don't fret ! When your Presidents healthcare scheme kicks in, I'm sure you'll save money !

Unless you've suddenly renounced your US citizenship, he's *your* president too. AFAIK, our coverage through the company won't change. If you can show how it would, I'd definitely be interested in hearing it.

BTW............what did your previous union get you, besides bought out ?

Scope, better-and cheaper- medical, an unsecured claim in BK that more than paid for any past/present/future dues, a defined pension & 401k, a paid lunch, ownership of seniority, consistent application of policies & procedures, a defined grievance process, a defined/transparent system for transfers/awards, longevity pay, 5 yr. pay scale (vs. 11+ now), a system that discouraged toadying and/or snitching... That's just off the top of my head.

Oh and didn't you and the FA's get a "PAY RESTORATION" when the union was kicked out ?

We did. It's not me that's trumpeting it as a "raise."

Why in the hell did you need that pay restoration in the first place if you had union representation ! Apparently you took "PAY-CUTS" while being represented by a union...WTH Dude ?

Did you miss the part when both our carriers went through BK, or are you purposely being obtuse? BTW, That was the cba we were under at the time of the merger.

I have yet to see "ANY" benefits to being a union member , in the last ten years !
And you or anyone else have yet to convince me and others that the only thing coming from union representation is money from your pockets !

Have you looked? The evidence is all around you if you only choose to broaden your perspective.

As for "money in your pocket," here's an example I've noted before, but apparently bears repeating; by paying $46/mo. in dues, I was saving over $110/mo. in medical costs alone (compared to non-contract NW employees). That's just one item in a long list. Surely even you can see where that would make sense?

Day of the union is dead............move on already !

According to who?

Wisconsin anyone ?

South, I read what you write on the WC, and if one reads between the lines of your ramblings, one thing becomes clear: You're for freedom, smaller government, and accountability. When you stand with Walker, that's exactly what you're standing against. If that's what you're into, have at it. Me? I'll take fighting for the 1st amendment, thanks.

Kev3188,

What costs increased 7/1 that will offset your pay increase? As far as I know, my payroll deductions on 7/15 will be the same as on 6/30 (except for 401k and taxes).

Nothing increased on 7/1 itself. I only note that the increase won't fully offset other costs that have increased- or benefits that have disappeared- since the merger.