Delta, pilots reach contract deal early

[southwind]

one more thing. I will say again. 10,000. that is about the total number of jobs that went out the window during the DL/NW BKs. (and before anyone even says it. One team, One Dream. NW's numbers count) 10,00 jobs if Delta was still doing its MX. (and you know, if Delta was doing its own MX it would lower cost on the same MX for the MRO side of the house, such as the LAN 767 HMV). Tony and his boys don't want to do HMVs and never has. That is all it boils down too.

What it boils down to is running a profitable business.....period !

Lol. wow. so you have no idea how labor in te country works and you just figure its best to talk out of your butt?

Why don't you go you some searching on just how much a union can do when the company is in BK.

How about we compare the UAL union contract to the Delta non-union compensation for MX? I'll start
who has more time off? UAL
Who makes more with and without union dues? UAL
Who has gets more 401K match? UAL
who has lower health care cost? UAL

and UAL is the friggin teamsters. I think I just won.

Let me know how the next union vote goes.................I think you just lost....................again !

 

[topDawg]

What it boils down to is running a profitable business.....period !



Let me know how the next union vote goes.................I think you just lost....................again !

So pretty much I say something and you have a lame ass reply. You said TechOps can't do HMVs, I said they have done it for MRO airlines.

and your pay comparison was even more of a joke. You say look at AMR, I say look at UAL, and you say let me know how the union vote goes? are you friggin kidding me?

 

[topDawg]

I wouldn’t expect most members of a forum like this to be content to admit that neither a non-union or a union perspective can both be right, but the evidence is overwhelming that DL and NW employees both fared better than their peers at other airlines and both achieved their respective goals operating within their own framework – largely non-union for DL and unionized for DL… but an abundance of DOT and SEC filings show that:
1. As of the merger between DL and NW, both reported the EXACT SAME labor CASM. DL emerged from BK about 18 months before the merger was finalized while NW emerged about a year before.you mean the one that did whatever it wanted to do to its employees, not limited to 10,000 or so of some of the best Mechanics in the industry. Man. Happy happy days.
2. NW achieved legacy carrier leading productivity before 9/11 and cut less than some of its other peers because it had already recognized that productivity among network carriers by the late 90s needed to be improved. CO’s productivity improved in the late 90s but did not pass NW’s. Productivity is an important measure of union success or labor-mgmt cooperation because unions in the airline industry have often protected jobs with the result of total labor cost. Achieving high productivity says that NW and its unions largely recognized the need to adapt and managed to do so well before many of its peers. I don’t remember all of the details of NW’s labor relations at the end of the 90s and early 2000s, but my recollections are that labor relations were far worse at other carriers.
3. DL had lower productivity than NW as of the date of the merger – which says that DL employees were on average better compensated for the same amount of production (seat miles produced). DL’s productivity quickly improved in 2008 and 2009 as DL rapidly expanded, esp. on int’l routes where ASMs add up very quickly compared to the number of employees necessary to produce them.
4. During the decade of the 2000s, DL laid off the lowest percent of FTE employees of the 4 BK airlines…. 35% compared to NW’s 39% and UA and US which were both around 50%. DL went into BK w/ a strategy to redeploy its aircraft rather than cut and DL was the only formerly BK network carrier that had grown its capacity by the time of the DL-NW merger. DL’s growth and redeployment strategy clearly reduced the number of jobs that were cut.WAIT. STOP. Ok, lets go back before BK. Ever hear of 7.5? How about the creation of the lovely DGS and then the full outsourcing of DFW ramp(AS A HUB!!! WITH THE PLAN TO DO IT AT ALL HUBS!!) Delta's BK started the day Ron the idiot took the job. Lets compare those employee cuts to that at UAL and NWA. (both that had contract to prevent such things)
5. The AMFA strike and lockout significantly affected NW’s labor cost reductions and reduced the number of employees NW had to cut elsewhere. Mechanics are often some of the highest paid non-pilot personnel and that was true with the NW mechanics. The simple fact is that ANY carrier looked good in maintenance compared to NW because of the strike.Depends. F/As will be close to TechOps. Ramp wont.
6. DL today still outsources less of its maintenance than any other US passenger carrier except for AA…. See more on this below.lies
7. The best argument for union success in reducing cuts could be made that the IAM saved jobs at NW through keeping many smaller stations open. If you compare DL and NW, however, most of DL’s ACS cuts and station closures came almost a decade earlier under 7.5. It is noteworthy that DL has not attempted to force changes in the list of stations operated by mainline, including retaining a number of medium sized stations that were mainline staffed at NW but outsourced (at least below wing by DL). Given that DL has made cuts in other unionized groups since the merger and the election results, it would be hard to argue that the current ACS strategy is not workable, esp. now that DL has aggressively used the ready reserve program to add low cost staff at mainline operated stations.
8. DL and NW”s labor CASM at the time of the merger was the lowest among network carriers and has remained competitive with the industry since, although it is not currently the lowest. Given that DL has stated that its intention is to keep its employees at average or better compensation and DL and UA have comparable productivity with AA and US lower (driven in part because of US’ higher percentage of short haul domestic flights), DL’s compensation strategy appears to be sustainable.Something tells me your wrong. Wanna bet that TechOps and the F/As have a union in the next ten years without major change? More and more old timers are retiring and more and more hangar guys are getting tried of the s**t that comes back from China.

I believe there is more than enough evidence to show that DL and NW both succeeded at obtaining the labor cost cuts they wanted within the respective labor frameworks each had.
Comparing DL vs NW pre-merger or DL vs the other network carriers post merger shows that DL has achieved comparable to better overall results to other more unionized airlines but within a non-labor strategy. However, DL's employees have not fared any worse than average with respect to layoffs or compensation and in some cases have done better. more horse crap. Outside of US nearly ever MTC employee US wide will do better overall than Delta's. Even looks like AMRs will do better with a BK contract.
If you believe as I do that DL is willing to pay just enough to keep labor peace and remain non-union, then they have achieved that by creating a stable non-union labor environment and at times their employees have benefitted. There is no evidence to show that on a consistent basis, DL employees have fared worse than other airline employees.
​more poo. I'll just keep bringing up United. I guess I could lump FX, UPS, Southwest and AMR in there too if you want.
Dawg,
1. You seem to continually want to compare the pay of DL mechanics to those at UA. You do realize that most of UA’s maintenance operations including its SFO maintenance base are in much higher cost cities than where the majority of DL’s mechanics are based, including the southside of Atlanta which is relatively low cost?Do not care. Living in SFO doesn't mean 3 more weeks of vacation lowers your COL. This is crap and you know it. AA mechanics continually note how low their pay is without noting that the DFW area and TUL are lower cost than many other parts of the country.There pay is low. Pretty sure its lower than Delta's. Pay and benefits are based on the market, and for large multi-site companies, pay and benefits are heavily skewed by the location of the majority of the workers. I doubt if UA mechanics actually do make as much as DL mechanics when you factor in the cost of living where most are located. ah so can we compare a LAX UA guy and a DL LAX guy? See you want to compare SFO to ATL. Not fair. try again. Add in that UA outsources more work than DL and AA and the comparisons for the mechanic groups as a whole look a lot different. *sigh* its about the same. You can keep saying its not but your wrong.
2. DL employee ranks ARE composed of multiple departments. While you look at the world through the eyes of mechanics, DL has to meet expectations for FAs, ACS employees, res agents etc. On that basis, the fact that DL ACS employees have taken over DCI ground handling operations at several hubs – not just ATL and CVG and?– has helped reduce the number of job cuts that would otherwise have to be made as the industry resizes to lower demand driven by consistently higher fuel prices and weaker demand. DL has added more FAs than at other network carriers and will add even more as the 717s are brought on line.
3. The regional carrier scope restrictions in the new pilot contract will reduce the size of the DCI operation relative to mainline regardless even if they are not as tight as many would like. Two pilots can fly a 50 or 76 seat RJ or a 717 or a 737-900ER. The pilot contract reduces the total number of DCI jobs and adds jobs to DL pilot ranks, and the ratios will require DL to draw down the RJ operation or take out RJ seats if DL furloughs DL pilots or shrinks the mainline fleet.​How many pilots do you think DCI has now? now how many when they park nearly 200 CRJs and replace them with 70? DCI will have rumor to grow, or ML to get smaller. Simple math is cool WT.
Traffic statistics for all carriers are published every month. The evidence is overwhelming that the ratio of seat miles produced by DL and its regional carriers is moving in favor of DL employees far moreso than at any other carrier, even with the addition of 76 seat RJs.
4. The fact that DL mechanics overhaul even the engines for some of its RJ partners validates that DL mechanics do benefit from its RJ operations. DL recognized the market for overhauling RJ engines even as it added hundreds of RJs to its network and allowed DL employees to obtain some benefit.I'll gladly take the CF34 line shutting down if Delta does say 85% of its MX in house. I'll take 717,737,757,767,777HMVs in house, Any mod work, a BR715 line, A T800 line, A V2500 line and a GE90 line. red tail full fleet support. (not limited to just HMVs and engine overhauls)
And TechOps is losing out on this deal. Less CF34 work and no BR715 work.
5. DL mechanics do a higher percentage of the work on DL’s mainline fleet in-house than at any other US passenger airline except for AA, which is fighting for the right to potentially outsource far more of their work or reassign it to lower paid non-licensed workers.
DL obtains about $500M in insourcing revenue per year in Tech Ops compared to about $2 billion it takes for DL to maintain its own fleet.
​Crap. Delta does about the same as the other out of house. the 700M in Rev. is great, but bringing all the work I said above and it would nearly triple the workforce if the MRO side completely shut down. With the MRO side it would likely mean in the ball park of 7,000 people at least. (along with much more hangar space...not in Mexico)
The yardstick for salary and benefits is not what existed 15 years ago. It is how DL compares to its current peer airlines in the US. ON that basis and balancing insourcing with what DL outsources, DL mechanics fare as good as if not better than their peers at other US airlines, and the comparison will look even better once AA completes its reorg in BK.
Crap. UALsends out about the same and does much better. Like it or not.
Kev,
I have posted before but will highlight again that benefits costs ACROSS American industry have increased and the level of benefits has decreased. There are multiple benefits surveys that are published and the Dept. of Labor posts US worker data for several benefits classes. So when it makes things better for the airlines then we compare to the airlines. When employees b*tch about how little we have we should look at what some working at ford makes? Your a walking, talking, typing PR.
Health care costs have DOUBLED over the past 10 years; no employer can continue to offer the health care benefits they once offered. DL employees pay a percentage of their health care costs that is very close to the average for all US companies. less than most airlines tho. That is what matter. Don't care about non-airlines.
Vacation and leave benefits have diminished throughout American industry. not the airlines. That is what matter. Stop with the PR.
Your benefits costs would have increased even if you still worked for NW and were represented by the IAM.As he was sitting at home with not1 but 2 more weeks of vacation.
While DL employee benefit costs in some cases are higher than other airlines, DL’s average compensation per employee is comparable to or above average for other network US airlines. so now we are back to airlines eh? pick a team bro.
Unlike UA and US, still bears responsibility for most of the combined DL-NW DB plans. Given that AA will likely retain responsibility for its DB plans, their costs will be higher than they originally estimated, which I believe will also reduce the amount of spending they will be able to do as part of their fleet restructuring.
And back to you, Dawg,
Since you want to note how well UA mechanics do with respect to benefits, you might want to wait a few years and then redo your comparison. So i can see that things have gotten better for them and nothing changed for me? ok if thats what you want.
UA has yet to integrate the PMCO and PMUA labor forces and specifically with its pilots would have to shell out hundreds of millions of dollars to bring their contract up to levels comparable with the new DL pilot contract. ​ha. hahaha. hahahahahahahaha. Your funny. You know what one of the biggest problems The unions are having with UAL's terms? Delta's SCOPE. If They are shooting for that, they are shooting for the bottom. Based on the revenue that UA is currently generating, UA cannot pay those kinds of rates and cannot afford to pay the cost to integrate its labor force. you mean the profit they just posted? Given that UA has few initiatives to increase revenue and its revenue growth right now is trailing the industry, any increase in costs will go directly to their bottom line, where they have been performing fairly comparably to DL. UA and AA pilots hold the DL contract out as the standard for where they should be paid,race. to. the. bottom. (oh and FYI. SWAPA's contract is the one everyone wants. Think about Delta 777 rates for a 737. No codeshares, no RJs. etc) the gap between them and DL is much larger than the gap between DL and UA mechanics, and, face it, pilots have been far more influential in inflicting damage on their employers if they don’t get what they want than have other labor groups. good for them? Add in that WN has said its labor costs need to come down and are pushing for even more outsourcing and the atmosphere to increase pay and benefits at unionized US airlines is very limited. maybe. you nor I know what will happen with Southwest. Though now that we know a carrier can go into BK and make money(AMR) who knows what will happen. Washington needs to fix this. Part of the argument for the DL pilots to sign the TA was that labor consultants (and supposedly some at the NMB) said there would be little incentive for any mediator to side with DL pilots who argued that the increases DL was offering were not large enough.No. It was all about the 717 that had nothing to do with plane. ALPA tossed out the FEAR. same old thing.
Mechanics at PMUA and PMCO may look relatively well off compared to the other workgroups but what they have could easily be lost if other labor groups decide to escalate their dissatisfaction with the company or if the company signs contracts that it cannot afford and then ends up back in BK where we know that labor – unionized or not - always loses.So I should compare to Ford, Then to AMR's BK, Back to Ford, then to nothing. mmmmmk.

PS. Kev, I'm pretty you the NWA folks topped out at 6 weeks, if it was less please let me know.

 

[Kev3188]

Nope, that's correct.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Dog,
it is good to hear from you again. It's been a while. Welcome back!

I can see you are still hung up on a few things... but rather than get into a debate over things that are subjective, let's just cut to the chase on the facts.

DL outsources less of its maintenance than any major US airline other than AA. That is well known and it is based on DOT data. You can review the results on page 9 of this IATA report.

http://www.iata.org/...Report_FY09.pdf

When we're on the same page about the amount of outsourcing at each airline, then we can move forward on other topics.

And since we're on the subject of outsourcing and job security, how about you find me any other airline in the Americas that brings in as much revenue to its maintenance dept. via INSOURCING - work done FOR other airlines by in-house mechanics. OK?


When you have that information, we'll go from there. OK?