Delta, pilots reach contract deal early

[Kev3188]

Yes, Delta outsourced HMV,s because they are very labor intensive and "DO NOT" make money ! Once the hangers were empty, they insourced work from "Other" airlines that actually "Make Money" ! HMV's, PSV's, Mod's. OT out the a$$, in the hangers , thank you very much. This does not include the millions engine maint. has insourced for quite some time now. Nothing like running a company to actually make money......is there ?

Nothing wrong with any of that, but what's the deal with the leveling going on in Tech Ops right now? I thought MRO volume was down, and thus the realigning. Surely, you're not one of those guys cashing in while others are rolling their toolboxes, are you?

 

[southwind]

Kev3188,

What costs increased 7/1 that will offset your pay increase? As far as I know, my payroll deductions on 7/15 will be the same as on 6/30 (except for 401k and taxes).

Yes Kev, please let me know what changes I can expect on July 15, 2012, besides a pay increase/restoration !

 

[southwind]

Nothing wrong with any of that, but what's the deal with the leveling going on in Tech Ops right now? I thought MRO volume was down, and thus the realigning. Surely, you're not one of those guys cashing in while others are rolling their toolboxes, are you?

Nobody is rolling toolboxes anywhere other that a different dept. A company went bankrupt, lost a contract, so affected mechanics are being dispersed to areas where they are needed...............think it's called flexibility !

Of course, a union would have none of this nonsense ! They'd rather the affected mechanics sit on their asses , in an empty hanger !

 

[Kev3188]

Nobody is rolling toolboxes anywhere other that a different dept. A company went bankrupt, lost a contract, so affected mechanics are being dispersed to areas where they are needed...

Yeah I know; I read it. Doesn't explain away your claim of "OT out the a$$, in the hangars." If there's a need for displacement, why is there so much overtime? That's not "flexibility," it's fiscal stupidity.

And yeah, they may not be rolling the boxes into the unemployment line (yet), but they *are* being displaced. For you or anyone else to be realizing a financial gain from that is unconscionable.

Some family...

Of course, a union would have none of this nonsense ! They'd rather the affected mechanics sit on their asses , in an empty hanger !

That's awful assumptive of you. What specifically would make you say something so silly?

 

[Kev3188]

Yes Kev, please let me know what changes I can expect on July 15, 2012, besides a pay increase/restoration !

For you? Given our differing circumstances, probably not much...

 

[topDawg]

Dawg,
first of all, the sum total of DL employees does not constitute what is done in maintenance or on the ramp.​err...ok. Not sure what this means.
With the 717, a lot more DL FAs will be onboard DL aircraft than exists today. DL pilots will fly more DL aircraft than exists today. And while you and the naysayers of the pilot deal want to argue that DL COULD cut the mainline fleet and still keep the ratios that the pilot contract entails, the simple fact is that there are mainline DL vs DCI ratios for all DCI aircraft types that never existed before.​ if it doesn't mean growth like promised who cares? The only time that ratio would ever become a factor is a large draw down. Like DFW draw down.
You do realize that DL employees ground handle DCI flights in many cities, including a couple of the largest hubs​ hub. AFAIK the only hub that does DCI work is Atlanta. Oh and cincy if you count that as a hub, plus a bunch of spoke cities​which is something like 2x less than AA and UA. - so, yeah, the 717 deal may not mean more jobs for DL ACS employees. ​below wing it wont. It may above wing You've already acknowledged that DL mechanics repair many DCI aircraft.​Engines. I haven't seen a CRJ at TOC since ASA took our hangar. How many of your mainline mechanics do maintenance on their regional carrier fleets?​None. I believe we have the only CF34 shop in the US.
You can argue that with no scope, DL could cut the number of mainline employees, but do you realize that NW had the highest productivity - ie lowest number of employees per mainline seat miles flown of ANY of the network/legacy carriers in the early 2000s, long before the AMFA strike and NW's BK. ​err cool story? UA and US laid off far more mainline jobs than largely non-union DL. The notion that union contracts have retained jobs for mainline employees is simply not supported by evidence.​10,000. 10,000. 10,000. You would be singing a much different tune had the AMFA strike not been step up to fail. The evidence is quite strong that DL looks for the lowest costs and greatest productivity from every source, and very often DL employees can successfully compete with both foreign labor and its domestic regional partners. ​once again, cool story. Delta PR The fact that DL is reducing the percentage of regional carrier flying while other carriers continue to outsource is proof of that.​ hmm. Delta is the only carrier that I know of in the last 3 years to add large numbers of aircraft to DCI and have nearly 2x the number of 50 seaters most airlines have.
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There was an interesting comment made on one of the pilot chat forums. Even some of the dissenters to the pilot contract acknowledged that the TA would likely pass.... and more significantly, they noted that the dissenters on the chat forums do not represent the majority of employees. Given that the TA passed, that would bear out. Given that all of the large non-pilot workgroups chose not to unionize, would validate that the vast majority of employees don't believe that union contracts would necessarily yield a better result.​and a good bit of the employees are older and are happy getting a pay raise that isn't one. (like the next one coming up)
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Benefits THROUGHOUT American business are decreasing, health care costs are soaring - and Washington can't figure out how to address the problem, yet more and more jobs are returning to US shores.... my suggestion to you is to address the political arena which influences so much of what affects your salary and compensation. ​so its DCs fault United gets 3% more than we do? wow. you take it to a new level. Delta is simply responding to the marketplace for labor, in wihch you participate. Don't forget that the US is about mid-tier among industrialized countries w/ respect to unemployment which is at record levels worldwide, makiing it alot more difficult for labor to make any gains. With 25% of Spaniards and Greeks out of work and their economies a wreck, it is hard to think Americans will make a whole lot of progress on lifting wage rates, given that you work for a global company in a global economy.​yep don't care. Delta is making billions and employees get crap for it. Don't care about the greeks, don't care if ford builds a plant in the US vs Mexico. I care about the US airlines. Thats it. Apples to apples.
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[topDawg]

Yes, Delta outsourced HMV,s because they are very labor intensive and "DO NOT" make money ! Once the hangers were empty, they insourced work from "Other" airlines that actually "Make Money" ! HMV's, PSV's, Mod's. OT out the a$$, in the hangers , thank you very much. This does not include the millions engine maint. has insourced for quite some time now. Nothing like running a company to actually make money......is there ?​so two things. you really think Delta has had 3 vendors for the 767/757 and for the M88/M90 each FIVE YEARS means its making them money? And just how do you think Delta can do a HMV on a LAN 767 but it somehow can't do it on a Delta 767? You think the boys at MAN are to stupid to call China? come on. Stop buying in the BS and think for just a minute.
​And I guess you missed Delta having to move AMTs out of the hangar because most of the MRO work is gone.

No matter what-ever ratio you want to use, 48% 73%, or 72% , being outsourced, the number of employees , at tech ops, is approx. 20% fewer employees from 15 years ago.

Maybe you need to find the percentage of "Insourced" work, compare it to the percentage of outsourced, then come up with a more accurate number, because your way off base at 73% Dude !​no he isn't. The question was how much work has Delta sent out.

one more thing. I will say again. 10,000. that is about the total number of jobs that went out the window during the DL/NW BKs. (and before anyone even says it. One team, One Dream. NW's numbers count) 10,00 jobs if Delta was still doing its MX. (and you know, if Delta was doing its own MX it would lower cost on the same MX for the MRO side of the house, such as the LAN 767 HMV). Tony and his boys don't want to do HMVs and never has. That is all it boils down too.

 

[topDawg]

Don't fret ! When your Presidents healthcare scheme kicks in, I'm sure you'll save money !

BTW............what did your previous union get you, besides bought out ? Oh and didn't you and the FA's get a "PAY RESTORATION" when the union was kicked out ? Why in the hell did you need that pay restoration in the first place if you had union representation ! Apparently you took "PAY-CUTS" while being represented by a union...WTH Dude ?
What is AA's union doing for them right now ?
What did AMFA do for the NW mechanics ?
I have yet to see "ANY" benefits to being a union member , in the last ten years !
And you or anyone else have yet to convince me and others that the only thing coming from union representation is money from your pockets !

Day of the union is dead............move on already !

Wisconsin anyone ?

Lol. wow. so you have no idea how labor in te country works and you just figure its best to talk out of your butt?

Why don't you go you some searching on just how much a union can do when the company is in BK.

How about we compare the UAL union contract to the Delta non-union compensation for MX? I'll start
who has more time off? UAL
Who makes more with and without union dues? UAL
Who has gets more 401K match? UAL
who has lower health care cost? UAL

and UAL is the friggin teamsters. I think I just won.

 

[737823]

In general, I'm referring to Pre-Bk. You could, however, use anyone of the three timelines you listed, depending on what variable you wanted to discuss.

P.S. I know we don't agree on the way forward for labor in America, but I appreciate you getting my point.

No problem. But seriously Kev, don't you think the NW-bk and subsequent concessions is an entirely different matter than the elections at DL? I understand your point and frustration in not having representation but it seems to me they're two entirely different events. Sure many here believe the PM-DL and PM-NW bks were staged for the eventual tie-up but all that aside seems to me they are separate matters. I guess reading your post and thinking on it I can see why in your industry the protection maybe necessary.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Two separate events to be sure, but either can be used as a jump off point to debunk some of the myths floating around regarding employee compensation.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I wouldn’t expect most members of a forum like this to be content to admit that neither a non-union or a union perspective can both be right, but the evidence is overwhelming that DL and NW employees both fared better than their peers at other airlines and both achieved their respective goals operating within their own framework – largely non-union for DL and unionized for DL… but an abundance of DOT and SEC filings show that:
1. As of the merger between DL and NW, both reported the EXACT SAME labor CASM. DL emerged from BK about 18 months before the merger was finalized while NW emerged about a year before.
2. NW achieved legacy carrier leading productivity before 9/11 and cut less than some of its other peers because it had already recognized that productivity among network carriers by the late 90s needed to be improved. CO’s productivity improved in the late 90s but did not pass NW’s. Productivity is an important measure of union success or labor-mgmt cooperation because unions in the airline industry have often protected jobs with the result of total labor cost. Achieving high productivity says that NW and its unions largely recognized the need to adapt and managed to do so well before many of its peers. I don’t remember all of the details of NW’s labor relations at the end of the 90s and early 2000s, but my recollections are that labor relations were far worse at other carriers.
3. DL had lower productivity than NW as of the date of the merger – which says that DL employees were on average better compensated for the same amount of production (seat miles produced). DL’s productivity quickly improved in 2008 and 2009 as DL rapidly expanded, esp. on int’l routes where ASMs add up very quickly compared to the number of employees necessary to produce them.
4. During the decade of the 2000s, DL laid off the lowest percent of FTE employees of the 4 BK airlines…. 35% compared to NW’s 39% and UA and US which were both around 50%. DL went into BK w/ a strategy to redeploy its aircraft rather than cut and DL was the only formerly BK network carrier that had grown its capacity by the time of the DL-NW merger. DL’s growth and redeployment strategy clearly reduced the number of jobs that were cut.
5. The AMFA strike and lockout significantly affected NW’s labor cost reductions and reduced the number of employees NW had to cut elsewhere. Mechanics are often some of the highest paid non-pilot personnel and that was true with the NW mechanics. The simple fact is that ANY carrier looked good in maintenance compared to NW because of the strike.
6. DL today still outsources less of its maintenance than any other US passenger carrier except for AA…. See more on this below.
7. The best argument for union success in reducing cuts could be made that the IAM saved jobs at NW through keeping many smaller stations open. If you compare DL and NW, however, most of DL’s ACS cuts and station closures came almost a decade earlier under 7.5. It is noteworthy that DL has not attempted to force changes in the list of stations operated by mainline, including retaining a number of medium sized stations that were mainline staffed at NW but outsourced (at least below wing by DL). Given that DL has made cuts in other unionized groups since the merger and the election results, it would be hard to argue that the current ACS strategy is not workable, esp. now that DL has aggressively used the ready reserve program to add low cost staff at mainline operated stations.
8. DL and NW”s labor CASM at the time of the merger was the lowest among network carriers and has remained competitive with the industry since, although it is not currently the lowest. Given that DL has stated that its intention is to keep its employees at average or better compensation and DL and UA have comparable productivity with AA and US lower (driven in part because of US’ higher percentage of short haul domestic flights), DL’s compensation strategy appears to be sustainable.

I believe there is more than enough evidence to show that DL and NW both succeeded at obtaining the labor cost cuts they wanted within the respective labor frameworks each had.
Comparing DL vs NW pre-merger or DL vs the other network carriers post merger shows that DL has achieved comparable to better overall results to other more unionized airlines but within a non-labor strategy. However, DL's employees have not fared any worse than average with respect to layoffs or compensation and in some cases have done better.
If you believe as I do that DL is willing to pay just enough to keep labor peace and remain non-union, then they have achieved that by creating a stable non-union labor environment and at times their employees have benefitted. There is no evidence to show that on a consistent basis, DL employees have fared worse than other airline employees.

Dawg,
1. You seem to continually want to compare the pay of DL mechanics to those at UA. You do realize that most of UA’s maintenance operations including its SFO maintenance base are in much higher cost cities than where the majority of DL’s mechanics are based, including the southside of Atlanta which is relatively low cost? AA mechanics continually note how low their pay is without noting that the DFW area and TUL are lower cost than many other parts of the country. Pay and benefits are based on the market, and for large multi-site companies, pay and benefits are heavily skewed by the location of the majority of the workers. I doubt if UA mechanics actually do make as much as DL mechanics when you factor in the cost of living where most are located. Add in that UA outsources more work than DL and AA and the comparisons for the mechanic groups as a whole look a lot different.
2. DL employee ranks ARE composed of multiple departments. While you look at the world through the eyes of mechanics, DL has to meet expectations for FAs, ACS employees, res agents etc. On that basis, the fact that DL ACS employees have taken over DCI ground handling operations at several hubs – not just ATL and CVG – has helped reduce the number of job cuts that would otherwise have to be made as the industry resizes to lower demand driven by consistently higher fuel prices and weaker demand. DL has added more FAs than at other network carriers and will add even more as the 717s are brought on line.
3. The regional carrier scope restrictions in the new pilot contract will reduce the size of the DCI operation relative to mainline regardless even if they are not as tight as many would like. Two pilots can fly a 50 or 76 seat RJ or a 717 or a 737-900ER. The pilot contract reduces the total number of DCI jobs and adds jobs to DL pilot ranks, and the ratios will require DL to draw down the RJ operation or take out RJ seats if DL furloughs DL pilots or shrinks the mainline fleet.
Traffic statistics for all carriers are published every month. The evidence is overwhelming that the ratio of seat miles produced by DL and its regional carriers is moving in favor of DL employees far moreso than at any other carrier, even with the addition of 76 seat RJs.
4. The fact that DL mechanics overhaul even the engines for some of its RJ partners validates that DL mechanics do benefit from its RJ operations. DL recognized the market for overhauling RJ engines even as it added hundreds of RJs to its network and allowed DL employees to obtain some benefit.
5. DL mechanics do a higher percentage of the work on DL’s mainline fleet in-house than at any other US passenger airline except for AA, which is fighting for the right to potentially outsource far more of their work or reassign it to lower paid non-licensed workers.
DL obtains about $500M in insourcing revenue per year in Tech Ops compared to about $2 billion it takes for DL to maintain its own fleet.

The yardstick for salary and benefits is not what existed 15 years ago. It is how DL compares to its current peer airlines in the US. ON that basis and balancing insourcing with what DL outsources, DL mechanics fare as good as if not better than their peers at other US airlines, and the comparison will look even better once AA completes its reorg in BK.

Kev,
I have posted before but will highlight again that benefits costs ACROSS American industry have increased and the level of benefits has decreased. There are multiple benefits surveys that are published and the Dept. of Labor posts US worker data for several benefits classes.
Health care costs have DOUBLED over the past 10 years; no employer can continue to offer the health care benefits they once offered. DL employees pay a percentage of their health care costs that is very close to the average for all US companies.
Vacation and leave benefits have diminished throughout American industry.
Your benefits costs would have increased even if you still worked for NW and were represented by the IAM.
While DL employee benefit costs in some cases are higher than other airlines, DL’s average compensation per employee is comparable to or above average for other network US airlines.
Unlike UA and US, still bears responsibility for most of the combined DL-NW DB plans. Given that AA will likely retain responsibility for its DB plans, their costs will be higher than they originally estimated, which I believe will also reduce the amount of spending they will be able to do as part of their fleet restructuring.
And back to you, Dawg,
Since you want to note how well UA mechanics do with respect to benefits, you might want to wait a few years and then redo your comparison.
UA has yet to integrate the PMCO and PMUA labor forces and specifically with its pilots would have to shell out hundreds of millions of dollars to bring their contract up to levels comparable with the new DL pilot contract. Based on the revenue that UA is currently generating, UA cannot pay those kinds of rates and cannot afford to pay the cost to integrate its labor force. Given that UA has few initiatives to increase revenue and its revenue growth right now is trailing the industry, any increase in costs will go directly to their bottom line, where they have been performing fairly comparably to DL. UA and AA pilots hold the DL contract out as the standard for where they should be paid, the gap between them and DL is much larger than the gap between DL and UA mechanics, and, face it, pilots have been far more influential in inflicting damage on their employers if they don’t get what they want than have other labor groups. Add in that WN has said its labor costs need to come down and are pushing for even more outsourcing and the atmosphere to increase pay and benefits at unionized US airlines is very limited. Part of the argument for the DL pilots to sign the TA was that labor consultants (and supposedly some at the NMB) said there would be little incentive for any mediator to side with DL pilots who argued that the increases DL was offering were not large enough.
Mechanics at PMUA and PMCO may look relatively well off compared to the other workgroups but what they have could easily be lost if other labor groups decide to escalate their dissatisfaction with the company or if the company signs contracts that it cannot afford and then ends up back in BK where we know that labor – unionized or not - always loses.

 

[Kev3188]

4. During the decade of the 2000s, DL laid off the lowest percent of FTE employees of the 4 BK airlines…. 35% compared to NW’s 39% and UA and US which were both around 50%.

You trot this out early & often, but conveniently elide over the fact that DL was almost 1/3 larger than NW during that time frame. Why not post actual job losses, so people can see it from all sides?

The best argument for union success in reducing cuts could be made that the IAM saved jobs at NW through keeping many smaller stations open. If you compare DL and NW, however, most of DL’s ACS cuts and station closures came almost a decade earlier under 7.5.

^You should note this bolded part when using your percentages theory.^

It is noteworthy that DL has not attempted to force changes in the list of stations operated by mainline,

You're joking, right?

Given that DL has made cuts in other unionized groups since the merger and the election results, it would be hard to argue that the current ACS strategy is not workable, esp. now that DL has aggressively used the ready reserve program to add low cost staff at mainline operated stations.

Yup, and now seasonal employees as well. Next step will be to take the cargo van to the Home Depot lot in the early AM's to pick up day laborers. Speaking of Ready Reserves, that's a 3rd item you neglect to note in your job loss theory; they don't count as laid off; they just send them home once they hit their annual max, which was 999 hours (it's now 1300). And just as a little salt in the wound, since they're technically not furloughed, they can't collect UI, either. Lovely.

The yardstick for salary and benefits is not what existed 15 years ago. It is how DL compares to its current peer airlines in the US.

I have posted before but will highlight again that benefits costs ACROSS American industry have increased and the level of benefits has decreased. There are multiple benefits surveys that are published and the Dept. of Labor posts US worker data for several benefits classes.

Not interested in following you down that rabbit hole. I'm only concerned with what happens in the commercial airline industry. After all, that's the "yardstick" you choose to use, right?

Your benefits costs would have increased even if you still worked for NW and were represented by the IAM.

You sure? How do you know? And while they cost(s) of the policies themselves may likely have increased- and let's not forget both NW & DL are/were self-insured- the fact is, we had contractual caps on how much of that could be passed onto the the employees. That's gone.

Now back to the original topic...

 

[737823]

Kev, if as we've discussed DL is only back filling ACS positions with RRs why do you see that as a concern to job security? Hasn't DL offered full time and even management position to RR employees? Seems like a good gig for college students, teachers, or anyone with free time and flexibility in their schedule. I could be wrong, but isn't it preferable to maintain a mainline staffed station with some RRs than outsource a station altogether?

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

I wouldn't have such a problem with it if there was a defined limit on the number of these employees per station. Right now there is none, and really, there's nothing stopping them from converting any given city to an allready reserve scheme.

It'd also be tolerable if it genuinely was being used as a stepping stone to regular (benefitted) employment. It's not; most all attrition is being done by hiring more ready reserves, so unless someone wants to work in ATL or LGA, there's no hope. In theory, it's nice for college kids,etc., but as you know, aviation is a 24/7 operation, and it doesn't adapt for someone's poli-sci class. That said, in my experience, the good ones we've had *want* to be here for the long haul, but get disillusioned, and leave. What the company is left with is the rest who are just mailing it in. That may be cheap, but it's still a poor investment...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
I'm GLAD to share charts, graphs, and data to make my points. I could send you what I've done but it is far more credible to quote others. AA in its BK filing showed much of the same data, although it is presented somewhat differently and using somewhat different data points. The bottom line conclusions are the same, however, and that is that DL employees are at or above average in compensation and have been affected less than their peers at other airlines by the restructuring of the past decade. Since the data is based on publicly available data sources, it is not secret.
Because I can't post a document of its size online and I don't have the original link, I'll send it to you offline and to anyone else who asks me for it.
If you can figure out how to post the data and want to, please do so. But it does validate what I have said for quite some time.
My desire is simply that accurate information be used to make logical decisions and conclusions.

I don't believe DL has closed many stations to mainline personnel over the past 10 years... certainly no more than at other airlines.

I am happy to use the airline industry as the benchmark.... the AA data shows that DL's benefits costs are comparable to or better than its airline peers.
But where you and Dawg and others accurately note that some benefits at DL are not as good as at other airlines, I simply note that where that exists, DL's benefits are in line with American industry as a whole.

I don't disagree that the RR program has been used profusely - perhaps even excessively. But the labor market is economically driven and DL is no different than any other company in looking for the most cost effective way to get the job done. In many cases, they can hire short-term, part-time people to fill their needs. I'm not convinced that DL will get the level of service w/ that type of employee as they do with someone who has worked for years - but for 95% of what needs to be done, they can handle the job. The key is to have enough well-trained, competent full-time people to support them - and that is your job security.

I wouldn't encourage anyone to choose an aviation career today, even if it was a choice. DL is probably leading the industry in making a career less likely for most of their new hires... but they have also done more to protect their current FT employees by not pushing them out involuntarily and attempting to grandfather them in their current positions.
.