Delta pilots appear to win seniority arbitration over NW

[Dignity]

I doubt that anyone will declare victory on the SLI. The stated purpose was to come up with a fair solution not a victory. Your interpretation of the award is misleading. 777's or 787's are not classified as replacement aircraft and the scope of the award addresses only 777,787,747.
A diplaced 747 pilot can not displace to 777 as well as 777 can not displace to 747 or 787.....a330 or 767-400 or 767-300 are not covered .

meto,
mind you this what just brought up in a morning discussion over coffee with a good friend of mine..
what I was told basically was if another aircraft replaced a 747 the pilot would be able to bid solely on the particular aircraft that is used to *replace* that aircraft, not any 777 and displacing a pilot who is currently holding a 777.
for example, if four 744 were replaced with four 777, the pilots would be only allowed to bid on those four replacements(regardless of what aircraft is it)..

 

[North by Northwest]

From the NW perspective based on DOH/The most senior 2hundredsome NW pilots are protected DOH, ALL 744/787's (and replacements should that order be changed to 777LRs) are protected. DOH

The rest are ratioed based on DOH/AC/pre-merger rank formula.(which the arbitrators come to the conclusion equals a 1:1 ratio)


Regardless of what "some" news amateurs write.


A Delta pilot's take:
"All in all, it was just about what was expected. I find it a very balanced award with very little "windfall" for anyone - at least at first glance. Neither the former NWA pilot group nor the DAL group can claim "victory". The decision might actually be the most balanced senior integration of which I am aware..

I'm within 1% of relative seniority on this new list as compared to my former seniority. In five years, we will see over 1000 former NWA types retire and probably 250 ish pre-merger DAL types retire. A year after these minimal fences come down (fence is 5yrs from the single certificate date).

Although there is bound to be some complaining based on individual perception, its a good decision."

A NW pilot's take:

" Overall (straight DOH) NW "lost", but with regard to widebody fencing NW scored a major victory. After the top 240 or so, it is 1:1"

 

[Dignity]

Yes, prevailed. NW pilots argued for DOH, and DL pilots argued for the result that was adopted.

I just located another article from last night that agrees with my characterization of the outcome:



http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081208/delta_north...ilots.html?.v=2

Had the arbitration panel ruled that Date of Hire would control, I suspect that many would label that a "win" for the NW pilot group.

As I posted above, if the fences and other details make the decision palatable to the NW pilots, then great! Perhaps the integration won't be the complete disaster that's happened at US.

both groups flying was protected, and it appears its a balanced decision, in that regard it was the fair thing to do under the circumstances. maintaining relative seniority with fences put up means no one prevailed over another.

 

[Dignity]

From the NW perspective based on DOH/The most senior 2hundredsome NW pilots are protected DOH, ALL 744/787's (and replacements should that order be changed to 777LRs) are protected. DOH

The rest are ratioed based on DOH/AC/pre-merger rank.

on the flip side..to my understanding those who were junior stayed junior and were placed on the list as DOH(recently hired).

it appears they took each seniority range and integrated based on what that group was holding..seperately(dealing with the senior group , mid level senior, mid and junior).

 

[metopower]

meto,
mind you this what just brought up in a morning discussion over coffee with a good friend of mine..
what I was told basically was if another aircraft replaced a 747 the pilot would be able to bid solely on the particular aircraft that is used to *replace* that aircraft, not any 777 and displacing a pilot who is currently holding a 777.
for example, if four 744 were replaced with four 777, the pilots would be only allowed to bid on those four replacements(regardless of what aircraft is it)..

Correct ..that is not a displaced pilot. Those exampled aircraft are NW pilots airplanes.No one can displace a current holder from the other side for 5 years.

 

[North by Northwest]

both groups flying was protected, and it appears its a balanced decision, in that regard it was the fair thing to do under the circumstances. maintaining relative seniority with fences put up means no one prevailed over another.

I do not think it is fair in other instances D, because as DL FAs are the larger of the two, doing a 1:1 ratio will place some junior NW FAs ahead of more senior DL ones.

That is what DL FAs should be concerned with...arbitration will not be kind to them.

 

[North by Northwest]

on the flip side..to my understanding those who were junior stayed junior and were placed on the list as DOH(recently hired).

it appears they took each seniority range and integrated based on what that group was holding..seperately(dealing with the senior group , mid level senior, mid and junior).

They protected ONLY the large 744/787/777 widebody positions on both sides...after that it is 1:1

I believe Delta was asking for a ratio of 4:1 because of being the larger of the two and having more widebodies. So, there was no mid/low concern except that ALL pilots hired after April 08 start at the bottom.

 

[Dignity]

I do not think it is fair in other instances D, because as DL FAs are the larger of the two, doing a 1:1 ratio will place some junior NW FAs ahead of more senior DL ones.

That is what DL FAs should be concerned with...arbitration will not be kind to them.

North,
if a relative seniority was used for Flight Attendant, and a NW FA was in the most senior 1/3 group prior to combination(being a smaller group), that would mean they would continue to remain in the 1/3 seniority group on the combined list. that would be to the NW FA advantage in that instance(if the top 1/3 DL FA is senior) that would mix the NW FA into the top 1/3 DL senior group! and! there are no fences put up(at all) unless there is a contract(and only if there is a contract).

 

[Dignity]

They protected ONLY the large 744/787/777 widebody positions on both sides...after that it is 1:1

I believe Delta was asking for a ratio of 4:1 because of being the larger of the two and having more widebodies. So, there was no mid/low concern except that ALL pilots hired after April 08 start at the bottom.

what this says to me is simply, no group gets the advantage based solely on being the larger group.

 

[North by Northwest]

North,
if a relative seniority was used for Flight Attendant, and a NW FA was in the most senior 1/3 group prior to combination(being a smaller group), that would mean they would continue to remain in the 1/3 seniority group on the combined list. that would be to the NW FA advantage in that instance(if the top 1/3 DL FA is senior) they would mix the NW FA into the DL senior group! and! there are no fences put up(at all) unless there is a contract(and only if there is a contract).

(unless there is a contract(and only if there is a contract). Good points...I do not see relative seniority happening. I think there are two options. DOH or 1:1.

Personally, If I were a DL FA, I would not gamble with arbitration. (arbitrators will most likely look at some aspects used in the pilot's marriage, but not all.)

 

[Dignity]

(unless there is a contract(and only if there is a contract). Good points...I do not see relative seniority happening. I think there are two options. DOH or 1:1.

Personally, If I were a DL FA, I would not gamble with arbitration. (arbitrators will most likely look at some aspects used in the pilot's marriage, but not all.)

I was simply stating relative seniority based solely on this decision as an example..

more than likely based on past decisions for Flight Attendant I would predict D.O.H. but that is not a certainity in arbitration, but my best guess.

 

[BABABOOY]

I do not think it is fair in other instances D, because as DL FAs are the larger of the two, doing a 1:1 ratio will place some junior NW FAs ahead of more senior DL ones.

That is what DL FAs should be concerned with...arbitration will not be kind to them.

One can argue that arbitration HAS been good for Delta F/A's in the past.

 

[Dignity]

One can argue that arbitration HAS been good for Delta F/A's in the past.

a question?
DAL Flight Attendant seniority lists have been decided by a group of arbitrators in the past?
I thought Pan Am seniority was based on the 1991 hire date after an interview and ratio placement and Western was D.O.H (that was done by an arbitrator?)

past arbitration decisions for Flight Attendant has been D.O.H (I did not realize it was different for DAL?)

with the unfortunate TWA Flight Attendant staple and arbitration made law, I do not think any group will ever have an advantage over another or what was "good for Delta F/A's in the past" going forward.

 

[BABABOOY]

a question?
DAL Flight Attendant seniority lists have been decided by a group of arbitrators in the past?
I thought Pan Am seniority was based on the 1991 hire date after an interview and ratio placement and Western was D.O.H (that was done by an arbitrator?)

past arbitration decisions for Flight Attendant has been D.O.H (I did not realize it was different for DAL?)

with the unfortunate TWA Flight Attendant staple and arbitration made law, I do not think any group will ever have an advantage over another or what was "good for Delta F/A's in the past" going forward.

Hi dignity,
First let me state that on a different thread you apologized if you were
coming across a certain way, You weren't and the apology wasn't necessary, but
thank you.
From what I understand, of course, I believe there is always three sides to a story,
but in the Northeast case Delta (in flight f/a team) wanted a Delta to Northeast ratio
of 4.7 to 1. Talks didn't produce agreement and issues submitted to arbitration. The
result was Northeast F/A's with 20+ years and those hired after 1/1/72 were merged based on
the ratio of 4.7 to 1.
For Western, the integration team wanted a Ratio of 3.4 to 1. Again
talks did not produce agreement and issues submitted to arbitration. The outcome was integration
as follows: top 25%- Seniority was integrated by ratio rank 3.4 to 1 (actual; 3:1.3:1,4:1.3:1,4:1)
all others were integrated using DOH.
For PanAm Delta wanted a ratio of 8.4 to 1.
PanAm filed a suit against Delta claiming unfair labor practices, Related Lawsuit was dismissed.
Actual outcome was top 3,000 Delta F/A's- No change. The PanAm f/a's were integrated using a 5:1
ratio beginning at Delta seniority of 3001 until the Delta seniority number of 12,000. Below 12,00 DOH
was applied.
This information is from our Seniority Integration team's base visit.

 

[luvthe9]

Who gets laid off (if anyone) when the 9"s get parked?