Delta (finally) adds -8 to the CF34 line

[Airlinelifer]

Prove it.

Josh

Josh,, DL had 15 mainline ramp stations compared to 40 mainline ramp stations for NW when they merged. Many more should be handled with mainline ramp if D E L T A wanted to. MIA and PBI just to name a few,,,,,aaaaand D E L T A has no problem having Customer Service Agents handle the above wing operation in MIA and PBI and ALL other mainline stations as a matter of fact. (YEA for above wing, BOOOO for below wing).

 

[737823]

i dont recall saying that we outsource cargo and express in bos... bos is mainline and someone can correct me if im wrong but in bos i think express has their own and cargo is still mainline... it was when i was there from june 99 to june 2000

700 is there a link for the dl leadership 7.5 i know they did a lot of destruction

i do know in my station dl ramp is outsourced considering how large of an operation they have here

Here are a few to check:

http://www.businessw...o-good-at-delta

http://www.shrm.org/...inal online.pdf

http://www.academia....ase_Group_Study


Josh

 

[737823]

Josh,, DL had 15 ramp stations compared to 40 for NW when they merged. Many more should be handled with mainline ramp if D E L T A wanted to. MIA and PBI just to name a few,,,,,aaaaand D E L T A has no problem having Customer Service Agents handle the above wing operation in MIA and PBI.

Thanks, as a passenger I have most of my interaction with above the wing personnel. In 2008 NW had more mainline stations, but how does it compare today? Trying to search, Kevin posted a list sometime ago.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Mail and freight were outsourced before the ramp unionized, it was outsourced in 92 and after.

 

[Kev3188]

DL is a very successful company that knows you can't pay your employees bottom of the barrel wages and expect them to deliver for the company.

I believe you have said here that it is cheaper for DL to use an RR employee than to subcontract out the job

So which is it?

 

[robbedagain]

i could be wrong but i think may be piedmont (en) may do the express ramp in BOS as far as i know mainline still does cargo

as for that first article the bw article its quite old 1994 but it goes to show that DL was going to do whatever it took to get their cost cuts down but again in 2008 when they went ch11 they hosed their folks even more i dont know if kev can post all the cities that dl has mainline.. for the ramp that is..

 

[WorldTraveler]

With all this newfound fascination with Delta's leadership 7.5 program, it's time for a little context:

1. No one at DL will defend what happened at DL... it was by far the most significant event in destroying the traditional labor-mgmt. relations that had historically made DL so strong.

Even though Ron Allen, the author of 7.5, came up thru DL's HR dept., he understood nothing of the principles that made DL unique - or else he chose to abandon them all.

2. DL bought Pan Am's transatlantic assets and the Shuttle in 1991 in the aftermath of the first Gulf War which had an enormously negative effect on the global airline industry. DL's acquisition of Pan Am went very badly, in part because global air travel was impacted so much by the Gulf War but also because Pan Am was badly broken as a company and DL overlooked what was good about Pan Am based on DL's belief that the whole company was broken. DL lost a huge amount of money in the early 90s and by the time 7.5 was announced, it was not an exaggeration that DL's future was very much at stake.

3. But it is equally true that the entire US airline industry went thru enormous difficulties in the 1990s and cut deeply as well. AA launched and then abandoned 3 newly created or acquired hubs; CO filed for its 2nd BK and spent most of the decade trying to get back on its feet; Eastern went out of business. Pan Am and TWA both sunk much deeper. US and its predecessors went thru all kinds of soul-searching trying to find a smooth place to fly... and is currently in a better place than they ever were in the 90s - but the same can be said about DL.

It is completely inaccurate to highlight 7.5 without realizing what else was going on in the airline industry, including huge losses both in profitability at other airlines plus in the number of airline employees and in the compensation they received.

I have no problems w/ talking about 7.5 but don't act as if DL acted single-handedly or that DL was the only airline that was making deep cuts including outsourcing work that had been done by in-house employees.

 

[Kev3188]

Holy sh*t there's a lot to unpack here... (puffs cheeks)

Okay, let's see...

Actually DL doesnt, they farmed out most of their stations in bankruptcy, DGS doesnt count.

Prove it.

Josh

Most PMDL ramps were farmed out during 7.5. I've been told by local employees that MSY was supposed to get the axe in '05, but "lived" after Katrina. At the time of the merger, DL had 12-or 13 ramps staffed with mainline employees. NW had 40. They are all still staffed today. They (combined) are:

MSP/MEM/IND/LGA/ORD/LAX/JFK/MSN/MDW/GRR/PHL/FLL/TPA/PHX/SJU/CVG/SLC/MSY/FNT/GRB
/MCO/MKE/DCA/LAS/SEA/ATL/BOS/EWR/MCI/BNA/DEN/DFW/BWI/SFO/IAH/DTW/HNL/IAD/PDX/ANC/
STL/CMH/RSW

SLC/CVG/SJU were staffed by DL, but not NW pre merger.

Post merger, DL (re)opened 7 stations to it's employees. IIRC, they are: ORD, SFO, RSW, PHX, PDX, SEA and 1 that escape me (LAS???) . At any rate, they were all staffed with NW employees. IOW, there has been no new locations staffed post merger.

Pretty sure DL has mainline employees at both BOS and PVD

Josh

They do. Above wing only.

Pre BK, NW staffed both above & below. Both were outsourced during BK for us. Not sure when DL farmed the ramp out in both places, but it'd been awhile. FWIW, BDL is also a maintenance station...

DL handles cargo at BOS why can't the IAM negotiate the same for their members?

Josh

Technically, they did. BOS cargo was one of several that the IAM negotiated to maintained during our (NW) 1113 process. NW wanted to farm 'em all out. We wound up keeping them all. DL has since closed ANC cargo.

Josh,, DL had 15 mainline ramp stations compared to 40 mainline ramp stations for NW when they merged. Many more should be handled with mainline ramp if D E L T A wanted to. MIA and PBI just to name a few,,,,,aaaaand D E L T A has no problem having Customer Service Agents handle the above wing operation in MIA and PBI and ALL other mainline stations as a matter of fact. (YEA for above wing, BOOOO for below wing).

True. I'll have to dig deep, but somewhere on the interwebs is a clip of RA basically saying he wants all stations staffed with CSA's, but that the ramp will be on a case by case basis.

When they staff somewhere like CLT, MIA, or even RDU, then I'll believe the "good news story" they like to pimp about insourcing. Until then, it's merely propaganda for low information employees to buy into...

Thanks, as a passenger I have most of my interaction with above the wing personnel. In 2008 NW had more mainline stations, but how does it compare today? Trying to search, Kevin posted a list sometime ago.

Josh

See above. Hope it makes sense...

 

[WorldTraveler]

So which is it?

both are accurate.

DL's RR employees do in fact make as much or more than the subcontract employees which other carriers are now making the standard in many stations AND DL does still have mainline, FT employees in many of those same cities.

DL is no different than other airlines in that every employee can't be a full-time employee w/ full benefits. For those employees that are FT, they are paid very well relative to their peers. For those that are RR, they are paid as well as their outsourced peers as other carriers... and often at the same wages as PT employees but w/o benefits.
Let's not forget that F9 has outsourced all stations outside of DEN, IIRC.

Other airlines, thanks to their unions, don't have the option of using a blended approach to station costs so they simply outsource it all.
DL uses a blended approach and manages to staff many stations that other carriers would and are outsourcing.

The answer to your concerns about the "mini 7.5" at PMNW stations (which would certainly have to mean the medium sized BW cities) is directly related to how long DL can use its blended approach to RRs and FT employees.

If that ends, I can assure you that the amount of outsourcing will match if not exceed what other carriers, including AA and UA are doing.

As for what stations were/are DL-staffed stations, it is precisely because DL has respected the agreements that NW had w/ its unions that those stations have been retained. It also made good business sense and many of those cities are ones where DL has focused a lot of effort to grow their presence since the merger.

As unfair as it may be to some DL employees, DL does not have the "locked" arrangement between the ramp and counter/gates as other carriers including NW had. The fact that even cities as high profile as the LGA Shuttle (which is separate from the C and D terminal operations) are contract staffed below wing but mainline staffed above wing says that the priority on mainline staffing is heavily dictated by the type of aircraft operated. DL's Shuttle is Ejets now.

I too want to see a whole lot more cities fully staffed by DL employees - and the increase in 717s is the best route for that to happen. The percentage of flights in medium sized cities that are regional jets will dramatically decline over the next few years in favor of more 717s. Medium sized cities will be the biggest beneficiaries of the increase in mainline flying as dozens of duplicate small RJ flights are replaced with mainline aircraft.

There will always be RJs in small cities and in niche markets but the best hope for adding more mainline employees comes by flying more mainline aircraft.

No one is reducing its regional carrier operation in favor of mainline aircraft as fast as DL is doing.

 

[Kev3188]

With all this newfound fascination with Delta's leadership 7.5 program, it's time for a little context:

1. No one at DL will defend what happened at DL... it was by far the most significant event in destroying the traditional labor-mgmt. relations that had historically made DL so strong.

...Except that the company narrative wants people to think that those historical relations still ecist. They don't.

DL overlooked what was good about Pan Am based on DL's belief that the whole company was broken.

Such as?

 

[robbedagain]

thanks kev.. thats quite a bit of stations dl has for their own ramp work

 

[Kev3188]

The answer to your concerns about the "mini 7.5" at PMNW stations (which would certainly have to mean the medium sized BW cities) is directly related to how long DL can use its blended approach to RRs and FT employees.

IMO, it's coming. As soon as the company feels 120 as a whole is sufficiently complacent, it'll start. Not in one fell swoop, but one here, one there until they're back to 12-14(ish) stations again...

 

[737823]

Lots of info here.

Most PMDL ramps were farmed out during 7.5. I've been told by local employees that MSY was supposed to get the axe in '05, but "lived" after Katrina. At the time of the merger, DL had 12-or 13 ramps staffed with mainline employees. NW had 40. They are all still staffed today. They (combined) are:

MSP/MEM/IND/LGA/ORD/LAX/JFK/MSN/MDW/GRR/PHL/FLL/TPA/PHX/SJU/CVG/SLC/MSY/FNT/GRB
/MCO/MKE/DCA/LAS/SEA/ATL/BOS/EWR/MCI/BNA/DEN/DFW/BWI/SFO/IAH/DTW/HNL/IAD/PDX/ANC/
STL/CMH/RSW

So BOS is mainline ramp and cargo as of now but then you go onto say:

They do. Above wing only.

Above wing only, meaning mainline above the wing only, BOS is mainline ramp but PVD is contacted, correct? What does DL have at MHT? Will be up there next week.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

thanks kev.. thats quite a bit of stations dl has for their own ramp work

far more than other carriers will have.. but DL's maintenance operation in outstations is larger than other carriers as well.

IAM saved a lot of stations but I believe it is also true that the IAM agreed to cut in the hubs in order to save particular stations. Correct me if I'm wrong, Kev. (you're the man w/ the answers, tonite )

IMO, it's coming. As soon as the company feels 120 as a whole is sufficiently complacent, it'll start. Not in one fell swoop, but one here, one there until they're back to 12-14(ish) stations again...

it will be driven by economics, not a sense of when employees are no longer willing to fight for their jobs or not.

 

[Kev3188]

Josh--

Sorry. In my mind I had read it as BDL & PVD...

Yes, BOS is staffed w/mainline above & below wing. Same with cargo.

PVD is staffed above wing. The ramp is outsourced.

MHT is outsourced all around. Pre-BK, NW had it staffed above & below. No clue who handles us today...