Come Fly with Me
Member
Now I hope Dept. 120 to follow with the F/A's in unionizing at Delta.
Delta FAs File For AFA-CWA Election !
- Thread starter LukeAisleWalker
- Start date
yoyodyne
Veteran
Break out your red rhinestone shoes, and start tapping them together.....
Alice Cramden
Advanced
- Dec 23, 2006
- 157
- 0
The only reason to have a union is to protect your license. (i.e. your job) FA's do not have a license to lose. Pilot's have a lot of licenses to lose. Mechanics as well. For that matter anyone that has a license to lose needs a union.
I don't think they need a union.
Do FA's have cabotage protection? Just wondering. Hmmmm.....
757inthebarrel
Member
- Dec 5, 2006
- 97
- 0
Out of curiosity, does anyone know what happens if DL is the surviving carrier? My assumption is it would be like the DL/Western merger where all NWA unions would dissappear post merger, then the combined group would have the opportunity to vote a union in or not at a later date. Anyone have the real story?
yvrusfa
Advanced
It is hard to get the majority of "hearts and minds" when you have corporate intimidation/misinformation campaigns and kool-aid being served.
btw...if it was'nt for the numbers from atl. the campaign would have succeded long ago. read into that what you want.
ugh! :blink: "hearts and minds"?? sounds like rumsfeld or bush language. ridiculous!
as far as union free....except for pilots ( a noteable exception) they are. sorry.
yoyodyne
Veteran
Informed1
Advanced
- Nov 18, 2006
- 136
- 0
To be completly objective, and i'm an AFA member, if I were a Delta f/a I would very seriously think about this. It does not take a rocket scientist to look at all AFA represented mainline carriers and compare them to other unionized carriers (American and Continental). What you will find is this;
-AFA carriers all have the lowest wages in the industry.
-AFA carriers pay more towards health and dental insurance premiums, and have less than adequate coverage.
-AFA carriers lost thier retirements
-AFA carriers have the worst work rules
The list goes on and on. Top pay for an AA flight attendant and Continental, which were both impacted by 9/11 (Southwest can't be compared) is still in the $50.00 an hour range. The closest an AFA carrier can get is $37.59 (give or take a few pennies for cost of living adjustment).
In addition AFA has a reputation for only protecting and negotiating for its most senior members. Bargaining and side letters for its junior members have to wait until Section 6, but if an issue arises that impacts the most senior a side letter will be prepared faster than you can blink an eye. Now of course AFA will rally against this because they stand to gain so much revenue if they can organize the Delta flight attendants ($42.00 per month x 13,000=546,000 PER MONTH!!) and they despartely need it.
So to summarize, form your own opinions and make the decision that you think is best but at least look at what AFA has done for the carriers it now represents and decide if they can help you. Don't forget there are other unions out there (TWU is one) and also don't forget that CONGRESS INACTED RECENT LEGISLATION THAT PREVENTS CARRIERS FROM STAPLING!
jimntx
Veteran
Actually, Southwest can be compared. All you have to do is convert a "trip"--240 air miles IIRC--to time gate to gate--approximately 1 hour, and you find that top of scale at SWA is now over $50/hr. They are represented by the TWU.
The legislation does not prevent stapling per se. The legislation requires negotiation between the two unionized groups, and if they can not come to agreement, it requires arbitration. But, there is nothing in the law that says the arbitrator can not decide to staple one group below the other. Though it is unlikely that an arbitrator would rule for stapling, it is not forbidden. I think it is important that we all keep that small, but telling, difference in mind as we go forward. Finer hairs than that have been split in court before.
Informed1
Advanced
- Nov 18, 2006
- 136
- 0
As an AA F/A who's partner is a F/A for DL I can say you really don't know what you are talking about. DL F/A's have 4 holidays that is 4 more than we do at AA and NW have. Unless the complaint was something drastic, like hitting a passenger, they are not going to be fired for one letter. DL F/A's are pay protected for the entire month, that is 25 days more than us at AA. While we at AA are paid a higher hourly wage than DL, DL F/A's are higher paid than the NW F/A's. Then of course DL F/A's receive a higher rate for Purser pay than both AA and NW. We all have things that balance it all out, but all in all I think NW is pretty much on the lower end, and of course AFA negotiated their contract. You are clearly a supporter of AFA and it is obvious I am not. Pat Friend is no different than the same CEO's we get angry at. When the NW F/A's were at the lowest point while in bankruptcy she decides to raid the PFAA. The right thing would have been to offer AFA's assistance during the BK process and then lobby for a vote later. However, I guess $4,000,000 a year was too much to pass up and DL would bring in about $7,000,000 a year, what an addition to the AFA-CWA bank account. Speaking of AFA-CWA if AFA was the best thing out there, why did they have to merge with CWA....things weren't going so well for AFA. It also seems as though you are the one jealous of us at APFA, because your facts are a little off. The majority of us voted "NO" in 2003 for the RPA, it was our union president at the time who did not have the guts to tell Carty "NO" and reopened the vote. Jealous of the AFA I think not, think back to 11/93 when AA F/A's went on strike, when was the last time AFA went through with a CHAOS threat...I guess they haven't. In the future get your facts straight.
When was the last time they changed them for the worse?
Sounds a lot like the rest of us. I really dont see the need for holiday pay. I would prefer a couple cents more for every hour through out the year over some BS bonus paid on DEC 25. So how often are these guidelines ignored, and people forced to work over what they thought they would? Love to see real numbers and not the he said, she said, I have a friend who heard stuff.
First why make it about me? I dont work for Delta. Second, Other than I heard some where, has, that or does that happen?
Is it sipping kool-aid or simply not wanting a union in particular AFA representing them.
Well good for you. It seems as though the DAL FA's do not. Hoa many times and ways must they say thanks No thanks.
Why is the APFA so great?
Come on beauty, that makes no scense whats so ever.
Yea, dont count on it. AFA leaves NOTHING to jealous of.
ThirdSeatHero
Veteran
Just a clarification, Pilots are not the only group unionized at Delta.
donttouchthebeauty
Veteran
- Jan 11, 2006
- 545
- 0
Why is the APFA so great?
Come on beauty, that makes no scense whats so ever.
Yea, dont count on it. AFA leaves NOTHING to jealous of.
[/quote]
Please don't compare to others, THANK YOU....
Come on beauty, that makes no scense whats so ever.
Yea, dont count on it. AFA leaves NOTHING to jealous of.
[/quote]
Please don't compare to others, THANK YOU....
Delta's Policy Manual vs. Northwest's Contract
There is misinformation circulating about Delta's non-binding policy manual on the issue of minimum day. Delta Flight Attendants do not have a 4:45 minimum day [Sections 5.A.9.a.(3) and 5.B.10.a.(3)—Minimum Duty Period Credit]; they only have a 4:45 duty period average. The averaging of our duty periods is the key: we could often lose time and money when an average is used, that's why we fought so hard to restore our 4:15 minimum day during contract negotiations.
The Delta Flight Attendant policy manual reference to 4:45 Duty Period Average (DPA) is nearly identical in its application as the 4:15 Minimum Duty Period Average in TA 1 and the August 1, 2006 NWA Terms and Conditions of Employment (TCE), here at Northwest with two distinctions: while the minimum average at Delta is 0:30 minutes greater on its face than the Northwest minimum average, the Delta policy exempts the 4:45 minimum guarantee for duty periods consisting solely of deadhead flying or other non-working segments.
The current NWA AFA-CWA Agreement restored the 4:15 Minimum Duty Period Credit. In most instances, having a minimum duty period credit is preferable to having a minimum duty period average. The following example illustrates the difference between two patterns with identical flight time, but where the final pay and credit is significantly less on the DAL pattern because of this averaging and the lack of a true minimum day.
The FACTS about Minimum Duty Average at Delta:
NWA Minimum Duty Credit (MDC) vs. Delta Minimum Duty Average (MDA)
NWA Pattern 1001
DAL Pattern 1001
DAY ONE DAY ONE
DTW - MSP 1:30 ATL - CVG 1:30
MSP - FAR :55 CVG - MEM :55
Total Flight Time 2:25 Total Flight Time 2:25
MDC 1:50
Duty Period Pay 4:15
DAY TWO DAY TWO
FAR - MSP 1:00 MEM - ATL 1:20
MSP - LAX 3:45 ATL - SAN 3:35
LAX - DTW 4:20 SAN - ATL 4:10
Total Flight Time 9:05 Total Flight Time 9:05
NW Total Trip Pay 13:20 DL Total Trip Pay 11:30
Our NWA AFA-CWA collective bargaining agreement guarantees a minimum duty period credit of 4:15 for the first duty period regardless of the actual flying time in that duty period and is not offset against the total hours flown in the subsequent duty period. The Delta policy manual only "guarantees" (remember, it's a policy, not a Contract) a minimum duty period average of 4:45 for each duty period in the trip period, or in this case 2 x 4:45 hours = 9:30 hours. In the Delta example above, because the total hours flown in the two duty periods is greater than 9:30 duty period average, the actual hours flown, not minimum duty period average credit, would be paid. The Delta Flight Attendant would be paid and credited one hour and forty minutes (1:40) less than the NWA Flight Attendant in this example for the same pattern. This is one more illustration of why their total Flight Attendant unit costs are the lowest, even though their pay rates appear higher.
Minimum duty period credit is one of the work rule changes that was renegotiated in TA3 and restored in the current Flight Attendant collective bargaining agreement based on your feedback. The reality is, absent a Union and the right and duty to negotiate our work rules, our rates of pay and our benefits, NWA would have been able to make this and other changes unilaterally without negotiation.
There is misinformation circulating about Delta's non-binding policy manual on the issue of minimum day. Delta Flight Attendants do not have a 4:45 minimum day [Sections 5.A.9.a.(3) and 5.B.10.a.(3)—Minimum Duty Period Credit]; they only have a 4:45 duty period average. The averaging of our duty periods is the key: we could often lose time and money when an average is used, that's why we fought so hard to restore our 4:15 minimum day during contract negotiations.
The Delta Flight Attendant policy manual reference to 4:45 Duty Period Average (DPA) is nearly identical in its application as the 4:15 Minimum Duty Period Average in TA 1 and the August 1, 2006 NWA Terms and Conditions of Employment (TCE), here at Northwest with two distinctions: while the minimum average at Delta is 0:30 minutes greater on its face than the Northwest minimum average, the Delta policy exempts the 4:45 minimum guarantee for duty periods consisting solely of deadhead flying or other non-working segments.
The current NWA AFA-CWA Agreement restored the 4:15 Minimum Duty Period Credit. In most instances, having a minimum duty period credit is preferable to having a minimum duty period average. The following example illustrates the difference between two patterns with identical flight time, but where the final pay and credit is significantly less on the DAL pattern because of this averaging and the lack of a true minimum day.
The FACTS about Minimum Duty Average at Delta:
NWA Minimum Duty Credit (MDC) vs. Delta Minimum Duty Average (MDA)
NWA Pattern 1001
DAL Pattern 1001
DAY ONE DAY ONE
DTW - MSP 1:30 ATL - CVG 1:30
MSP - FAR :55 CVG - MEM :55
Total Flight Time 2:25 Total Flight Time 2:25
MDC 1:50
Duty Period Pay 4:15
DAY TWO DAY TWO
FAR - MSP 1:00 MEM - ATL 1:20
MSP - LAX 3:45 ATL - SAN 3:35
LAX - DTW 4:20 SAN - ATL 4:10
Total Flight Time 9:05 Total Flight Time 9:05
NW Total Trip Pay 13:20 DL Total Trip Pay 11:30
Our NWA AFA-CWA collective bargaining agreement guarantees a minimum duty period credit of 4:15 for the first duty period regardless of the actual flying time in that duty period and is not offset against the total hours flown in the subsequent duty period. The Delta policy manual only "guarantees" (remember, it's a policy, not a Contract) a minimum duty period average of 4:45 for each duty period in the trip period, or in this case 2 x 4:45 hours = 9:30 hours. In the Delta example above, because the total hours flown in the two duty periods is greater than 9:30 duty period average, the actual hours flown, not minimum duty period average credit, would be paid. The Delta Flight Attendant would be paid and credited one hour and forty minutes (1:40) less than the NWA Flight Attendant in this example for the same pattern. This is one more illustration of why their total Flight Attendant unit costs are the lowest, even though their pay rates appear higher.
Minimum duty period credit is one of the work rule changes that was renegotiated in TA3 and restored in the current Flight Attendant collective bargaining agreement based on your feedback. The reality is, absent a Union and the right and duty to negotiate our work rules, our rates of pay and our benefits, NWA would have been able to make this and other changes unilaterally without negotiation.
FlyDeMetrius
Member
- Oct 22, 2002
- 86
- 0
While I am not a Delta flight attendant I must say that what ever they decide it is their choice and their choice only. In the mergers of the past Delta was the giant and had sheer numbers to overpower any unionized flight attendant group such as Western, PAN AM…etc. This time it will be different because there will be two likely voting scenarios. 1.) The Delta flight attendants will vote on union representation if they succeed they get a seat at the merger table if not they just wait and see. 2.) The second scenario will be the final representation vote, this will happen with the combined flight attendant group. Because of the numbers of the NWA flight attendants comprising more than 35% of the craft being unionize the NMB will require a vote. The NWA flight attendants and the Pro-AFA Delta Flight Attendants group should insure that the AFA will finally get into Delta.
