Delta-AA

[WorldTraveler]

US has given up huge parts of its network to competitors, including giving up its position in NYC. US has certainly fought back competitors at PHL - but not after having given up huge amounts of its share elsewhere.

Metroyet?

Carriers w/in carriers were means to defend markets. DLX and Song are gone but DL still is the dominant network airline to/from Florida which was the focus of those two. Ted is gone as well but UA is holding onto its own at DEN - and seems to be trying to shift some capacity from IAH to DEN to help DEN out. DL and UA have achieved their strategic objectives even after closing their airline within airlines.... can US say the same thing?

I'm sure Parker can find financing - and maybe they'll agree to US stock despite the fact that LCC today is worth 1/4 of what AMR should be worth coming out of BK.

No, you don't pay off the debt in a merger... but in a merger, LCC will have to pay the creditors as much or more than what they would get in an AA standalone plan or from other scenarios..... if LCC is able to achieve that, they will be deeply in debt and the competitive situation won't have changed one bit.... having revenues shrink due to competitive growth in your key markets at the same time as you agree to billions of debt and pension obligations in addition to that massive aircraft order is not a recipe for success.

If you think otherwise, hop on US' flight to ATH and have a chat w/ the locals who will be happy to give you an earful about how bad life is after years of living beyond their means as a country.

 

[Super FLUF]

Please show me where I ever said I was in favor of this merger.

There will not be one found from myself either. But let's not let facts get in the way of another good DELTA IS AWESOME!!!! post from WT. Let's all hold hands and pray with WT.

Oh Delta, thou art the bestest airline ever! We give thanks for thee. May your route network grow and rivals be vanquished by your awesomeness. May Delta reap all of the power and glory forever, amen.

 

[WorldTraveler]

ha ha!

For the record, Fluf, tell us what your desired outcome is, your belief regarding a likely outcome, how you think the likely outcome will occur, and how AA will be positioned to win because of that outcome that is different from today.

you can do the same, 700, if you choose to do so.

 

[700UW]

My desired outcome is what's best for the employees of AA and US, thats all.

 

[WorldTraveler]

My desired outcome is what's best for the employees of AA and US, thats all.

on that point, we can agree.

I would only say that employees do not always consider all of the factors that are necessary for success. The ESOP at UA proved that.

And investors are largely non-employees and must be paid.

What is best still leaves alot of room for potential outcomes.... and I honestly think that the best outcome for AA and US employees is probably for each to remain standalone. Post BK, AA likely will have what it takes to compete... if the company will get its mojo back. US has had more success as a company in the last 2 years than they had in two decades before. I'm not sure US employees will benefit from starting the process of adjustment all over, one that still isn't finished and one which no one should believe will come easily for either AA or US employees in an AA-US merger.

BTW, my point in all of these discusssions about AA-DL (not a merger but an asset transaction, JimBoeingBoy) is to show that there are options out there beyond the AA standalone plan or an AA-US merger.

I do not necessarily believe an AA-DL transaction will occur or that it would be in the best interests of each carrier or its employees.

NW employees have done fairly well compared to other carriers' employees in mergers - but NW employees lost a lot in terms of their culture, independence, and, quite frankly jobs that got moved from the north to the south.

Few would argue that CO employees are better off today than they were as a standalone company.

NW and CO both could have continued for years as standalone companies, IMHO.

Mergers are messy.

I also believe that other carriers such as B6, DL, UA, WN, Virgin will achieve their strategic objectives regardless of what AA does. AA is a key player in the industry which is in play but it is not the only means to achieve the goals each of those carriers have.

The US airline industry is still highly competitive.

AA and US and the creditors need to consider that in their decisions.

 

[eolesen]

...get a flight attendant who is not bitter about their unfair treatment by management, and who is very likely under the age of 40, cute, female, and not sporting a 30 year old hairdo. Yes, that statement is sexist and ageist

Dunno... my last three or four flights with WN all had FA's who looked older than me.

 

[wings396]

Don't waste your time guys, Delta is dominant everywhere, and in every way. Routes, revenue, aircraft, and so on. He has been brainwashed after many years of that southern brewed Koolaide, and you will never sway him..

 

[jimntx]

Dunno... my last three or four flights with WN all had FA's who looked older than me.

Then, you had better have been nice to them. Some of them hold enough WN stock to buy and sell you and me twice over. At least at WN, you have a chance to get a young flight attendant because they've been hiring all along. We haven't hired anyone since 2001; so, since AA doesn't hire younger than 20, there is not one single f/a that is under the age of 31. The average f/a age at AA is 50!

 

[texflyer]

I agree with World Traveler, I would like to know what the employees expect out of this merger or not. Because too me, just a lowly frequent flyer, what the unions are clammoring for can only be accomplished with an ESOP. Why the "unified" unions do not go for this is puzzling. I mean seriously folks, the "Horton sucks" rants are getting old. I say to the union leaders, do right by your people and put forth an owner ship plan and control your destiny.

 

[bigjets]

Then, you had better have been nice to them. Some of them hold enough WN stock to buy and sell you and me twice over. At least at WN, you have a chance to get a young flight attendant because they've been hiring all along. We haven't hired anyone since 2001; so, since AA doesn't hire younger than 20, there is not one single f/a that is under the age of 31. The average f/a age at AA is 50!

That's because every APFA contract has been negotiated to help FA's be employed at AA without actually working at AA, this new contract should help move some of the high seniority dead weight off the seniority list (dead weight = FA's who work 2 trips a month or less) I don't want to hear from some FA "I did my time" that's a BS argument for full time employees to hear, or "when I go to work, I'm away from home" that's what an airline flight crew's job description is! That would be like an aircraft mechanic complaining about getting dirty or working nights and weekends, we all knew the deal coming into this career field.

That said, I haven't seen any other articles about Delta and AA, that makes me think something is happening, as every time a journalist writes about something it doesn't happen.

 

[wings396]

I agree with World Traveler, I would like to know what the employees expect out of this merger or not. Because too me, just a lowly frequent flyer, what the unions are clammoring for can only be accomplished with an ESOP. Why the "unified" unions do not go for this is puzzling. I mean seriously folks, the "Horton sucks" rants are getting old. I say to the union leaders, do right by your people and put forth an owner ship plan and control your destiny.

How is the ESOP work out at UA when they gave it a shot?

 

[bigjets]

I agree with World Traveler, I would like to know what the employees expect out of this merger or not. Because too me, just a lowly frequent flyer, what the unions are clammoring for can only be accomplished with an ESOP. Why the "unified" unions do not go for this is puzzling. I mean seriously folks, the "Horton sucks" rants are getting old. I say to the union leaders, do right by your people and put forth an owner ship plan and control your destiny.

That's what the employees at UAL did, and it blew up in their face. Remember the CEO still runs the company and makes the decision to go into BK to break the union contracts and wipe out the stock (ESOP) which exactly what happened to UAL employees. I just want to be the highest paid employees of any airline, I do agree the Horton sucks argument is old and weak.

The AA pilots wanted Cardy over Crandall, then they wanted Arpey over Cardy, now they want Parker over Horton, remembering the good old days of Crandall.

UAL pilots wanted Tillman, how did that work out for them, the TWA pilots wanted Icahn, how did that turn out for TWA.

Pilots should stick to doing what they are good at, "piloting aircraft" they are obviously not good at making business decisions.

http://www.brainyquo...t_crandall.html

 

[jimntx]

That said, I haven't seen any other articles about Delta and AA, that makes me think something is happening, as every time a journalist writes about something it doesn't happen.

Like a friend of mine always says..."Worry works. 95% of the stuff I worry about never happens."

 

[DCaf]

... and I honestly think that the best outcome for AA and US employees is probably for each to remain standalone.

Oh come on. If you've demonstrated anything on this forum, it's that you promote what is good for DL. So, I think the comment above is highly suspect.

Question: During the DL-NW merger was anyone on this forum deriding the advisibilty of that merger, as you do now concerning AA-US? I'm curious, as I didn't pay attention at the time.

 

[wings396]

He forgot to add that this outcome is also the best that Delta could ever hope for. This way AA will remain smaller than DL, and hopefully they can eat away at US until they close up shop. I'm glad that the masses are finally starting to see thru his agenda with world domination for Delta, as I have seen thru this charade for quite a while.