Delta-AA

[WorldTraveler]

And you do not know what DL 's plan will be to compete with a merger, but I'm sure some lengthy post will soon be on its way. Here is an honest question for you ... Why do you care so much if AA and US were to merge. I think people are trying to understand why. We all know where you stand with DL , however why so preoccupied with this.

I presume that is directed to me... and the answer is really quite simple.
This is an open aviation chat forum. I have always enjoyed and followed aviation and always will.

The two most active boards are the AA forum or the US forum. DL comes in a distant 3rd in activity on this forum.

For those who aren't interested in participating in the endless, multi-year internal US pilot debate, the AA forum is the alternative.

AA's BK will be crtiical to the future of the industry and many people's lives in the industry, including many people I personally know at AA, will be affected by it. I am as entitled to an opinion on AA and its outcome as I am regarding the presidential campaign. I focus my discussions here on the commercial airline industry.

You and others are also welcome to participate. And you will have to listen to (read) opinions different from your own.

I don't know what DL's response will be if AA-US merge.... but they have one, as does AS, B6, F9, UA, WN etc.
For starters, for the billions of dollars that DL would have to spend on AA, they could buy 25% equity in a number of foreign airlines and still have money left over to restart their own point to point service in key AA-US markets that are necessary for DL's network to compete w/ AA/US- not unlike what DL is doing with the LGA hub.

BTW, the oft-touted statement that AA-US would be the strongest carrier in the eastern US is an example of how quickly the competitive environment in the airline industry changes. At the beginning of this year, AA-US was more than 10% larger than DL east of the Mississippi which includes the majority of AA-US and DL's route systems. As of right now, DL is less than 1% smaller than AA-US on a combined basis due to the slot swap and DL's buildup of LGA - which has all happened very recently.
Given that completing a merger is years away and that capacity would likely have to be pulled from the combined AA-US in order to make it viable, it is far too early to say with any certainty who would be the largest airline.

AA's emergence as a standalone airline has always been and remains the most likely outcome - unless AA labor decides to engage in actions that significantly damage the enterprise - in which case I'm not sure that US would be near as interested in merging with AA at that point anyway.

The next key milestone in this BK will be the 1113 ruling for the pilots and the actions that follow.

 

[Kev3188]

And you will have to listen to (read) opinions different from your own.

Nobody "has" to do anything; that's what the ignore function is for.

 

[texflyer]

That's what the employees at UAL did, and it blew up in their face. Remember the CEO still runs the company and makes the decision to go into BK to break the union contracts and wipe out the stock (ESOP) which exactly what happened to UAL employees. I just want to be the highest paid employees of any airline, I do agree the Horton sucks argument is old and weak.

The AA pilots wanted Cardy over Crandall, then they wanted Arpey over Cardy, now they want Parker over Horton, remembering the good old days of Crandall.

UAL pilots wanted Tillman, how did that work out for them, the TWA pilots wanted Icahn, how did that turn out for TWA.

Pilots should stick to doing what they are good at, "piloting aircraft" they are obviously not good at making business decisions.

http://www.brainyquo...t_crandall.html

I appreciate your honesty. The ESOP at UA didn't work because they were structured wrong, the FA's were the odd man out. Since the union leaders seems to think there is this magical management team out there that will work for peanuts, no bonuses yet have an amazing business plan. I say put one's money where their mouth is,and go find them.That means ESOP.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Nobody "has" to do anything; that's what the ignore function is for.

precisely.... presumably this person doesn't want to ignore.

It seems that most people would prefer to hear/read other opinions and make up their minds based on that information but there are always people who want to silence opposing points of view.

These comments on a blog I just read would seem appropriate for a lot of people to consider. The issue is not the topic of Isaac or the RNC. The issue is the ability to live in a world of diverse opinions, be able to differ ideologically with people, but still embrace them as people and be able to enjoy them even as friends:

"In an earlier blog, I talked about people having the God given right to have and express different opinions on issues and on life in general. Opinions are formed based on lifelong data input to the human brain. In the US, we have the ability to communicate those opinions without worrying about going to jail for expressing them. What bothers me is the ever increasing vileness of the attacks on individuals and groups just because they have expressed their opinion publicly on something. The whole thing came front and center for me yesterday along with hurricane Isaac. To wish someone dead or placed into a position that would bring certain death seems despicable to me and something one would not wish on anyone in a civil world. Yesterday, someone that I have enjoyed being entertained by over the years, destroyed my respect for her. It was Ellen Barkin.
Yes, Ellen has made a few unkindly remarks before in her access to the press. Yesterday, she went over the top with me. Forget about the political points driving her in this. On Sunday, Ellen expressed her hope that tropical storm Isaac would smash up the Republican National Convention in Tampa and drown all its delegates. WHAT? Then she re-tweeted “C’mon Isaac! Wash every blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank SOB right into the ocean!” Is this the way to handle opposing views? Is this the way to solve the world’s or a countries problems? To do away with the opposition does not fix things, it will only delay a possible solution.
To Ellen and others espousing hate, please tone it down. Be thankful to live in a place where everyone can have a public forum if they can find listeners."

Once again, read these comments from the perspective of seeking open and constructive conversation - not an endorsement for or against the specific political beliefs expressed - that is beyond the scope of this forum.

In the midst of discussions about the future of AA, these are valuable words.

Wishing ill on someone if this merger doesn't go the way one wants is simply beyond belief.

In the midst of a US that is very divided ideologically, we need to embrace the right for all to express their opinions. Governmentally, ours is a representative democracy which means the majority - basically - decide the outcome.

In the case of AA, the creditors disproportionately carry the weight of the outcome compared to other stakeholders.

In both cases - and many more - our mindset should be to speak what we believe during the time of decision and then after the decision has been made throw our energy behind building the best we can given the decisions that have been made.

 

[bigjets]

I appreciate your honesty. The ESOP at UA didn't work because they were structured wrong, the FA's were the odd man out. Since the union leaders seems to think there is this magical management team out there that will work for peanuts, no bonuses yet have an amazing business plan. I say put one's money where their mouth is,and go find them.That means ESOP.

I agree with you, the executives deserve a bonus if they do something good, not getting a bonus for bonus's sake. AMR's executives received bonus's even though they lost billions of dollars over the years and sending AA into bankruptcy, all the while destroying employee relations and ruining AA's brand. Remember the employees GAVE AMR's executives concessions in 2003 and the executives GAVE themselves bonus's as they ran AMR into BK. I know bonus's are part of their contractual pay structure, but they need to change the nomenclature of bonus, that gives the implication they did something good.

Now if AMR made money year after year and we were the highest paid airline employees, then I don't think bonus's would be an issue. As a matter of fact, I think AMR should pay signing bonus's and have CONDITIONAL bonus's to SUCCESSFUL business executives. But as far as an ESOP goes, I want pay not stock from AMR, I certainly do not want to be an owner of AA if I don't have the power to do away with ineffective management or employees.

If I remember it correctly, the FA's at UAL voted against ESOP and IAM was told if we don't do ESOP we're doing away with kitchen, the vote passed then the kitchen was axed anyway. I believe the pilots union pushed for the ESOP and dragged the IAM down with them when UAL went into BK. THe unions should worry about pay, benefits, and working conditions not running an airline or maintaining head count to keep the dues coming in. A successful model is SWA they have high pay, with a small work force making money quarter after quarter, not a bloated work force with unions worried about head count. That is a case of AMR letting the unions run their business.

 

[WorldTraveler]

absolutely accurate statements:

Now if AMR made money year after year and we were the highest paid airline employees, then I don't think bonus's would be an issue. As a matter of fact, I think AMR should pay signing bonus's and have CONDITIONAL bonus's to SUCCESSFUL business executives. But as far as an ESOP goes, I want pay not stock from AMR, I certainly do not want to be an owner of AA if I don't have the power to do away with ineffective management or employees.

And, yes, UA's ESOP was riddled with the same fighting between workforces that exists at other airlines - and may end up happening between FAs and TWU groups against the pilots at AA - if things get nasty in the next few weeks.

The difference with UA was that some labor groups disproportionately had the ability to implement decisions that they deemed to be in their best interest; at AA, it is still the creditors and AA mgmt that make those final decisions.
If the pilot contract is abrogaged, the reality is that the FAs and TWU represented groups will have some input into the future of AA that the pilots will not, but they still won't have enough of a vote to make something happen that otherwise couldn't have happened.

 

[700UW]

United backs US airline consolidation

By Andrew Parker
United Continental Holdings, the largest US airline by revenue, is supporting more consolidation of the domestic market, saying it would not object to a merger between US Airways and American Airlines.
Jeff Smisek, chief executive of United, told the Financial Times he would not urge regulators to block a tie-up between American and US Airways, even though it could weaken the global airline alliance that his carrier belongs to.

 

[FA Mikey]

What a joke. UAL wants AA in UAL's position. Too many planes and one disaster after another. I am sure they would love to see AA deal with the UAL stuff.

I wonder how much that would weaken * with U not being allowed a full member? All sounds to full of crap.

 

[wings396]

No Mikey, they want to see overcapacity removed from the industry. If you would have been paying attention for the past few years, you would have known that is the main benefit of consolidation. Less seats, realistic ticket prices, a profitable industry, and job and wage stability for the employees.

 

[FA Mikey]

Then let U go out of business. We will be just fine on our own.

 

[wings396]

Yea right. That's mighty thoughtful of you Mikey. Nevermind all of those employees that are doing their best to support their families. I guess that even in BK you think that you an AA are above the rest. I see a wake up call coming your way, and it ain't from the front desk of a hotel.

 

[BoeingBoy]

No Mikey, they want to see overcapacity removed from the industry.

Overcapacity has been largely removed. That's why there's been 14 general fare increases that have stuck since 1/1/2011. That's why LF's are averaging the highest ever.

I wouldn't be surprised that UA wants AA tangled up in a merger instead of becoming a stronger competitor after emerging from bankruptcy. A merger could slow AA's progress enough to let UA get it's house in order first.

Jim

 

[WorldTraveler]

Overcapacity has been largely removed. That's why there's been 14 general fare increases that have stuck since 1/1/2011. That's why LF's are averaging the highest ever.

I wouldn't be surprised that UA wants AA tangled up in a merger instead of becoming a stronger competitor after emerging from bankruptcy. A merger could slow AA's progress enough to let UA get it's house in order first.

Jim

yep... we are in complete agreement.

 

[wings396]

I'm sure that WT will be along shortly to save the day for you. Beware for he is a wolf in sheeps clothing, as he too wants AA to remain independent, that way DL can have its fun with you as they chomp away at your business...
Take a deep breath, and think about his true motivation. An admitted Delta lover who only wants the 'best' for AA...

 

[wings396]

For the most part, but there is still room for more. Keep in mind that some carries will start to add some again.