Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvthe9]

How is it that you would have any idea what happened between the PHX chief pilot, and a PHX pilot?

Are you a BPR member? Did a BPR member break confidentiality and is now blabbing what happens during a meeting?

Should the PHX reps start to talk about the discipline that takes place of a CLT pilot?

Or is it more likely that you are a complete liar and make up stories?

Yeah I think that makes much more sense.

Here is how it went down. My friend got turned down. He was talking to a buddy who was in training with his sim instructor. The sim guy let Skinner know and it was referred to the PHX Chief Pilot, who was actually a good guy and did the right thing. That is how Graham got called in. Ask him.
You, are the liar and denier. As Graham if you don't believe me.

 

[dca319]

I went to the PHL roadshow as well. Right now, I am inclined to vote for the MOU, and here's why: All the arguments against were clearly emotional and tied to some kind of perceived "payback" that East pilots are due. I, for one, don't believe that the company ever would concede that since the East pilots agreed to LOA 93 that they owe them ANYTHING. Sounds like another "grieve it and lose it" scenario. The other arguments were concerning the vagueness of the language, but BOTH of our lawyers present ensured us that the language was as solid as any contract can ever be, and that the few ambiguous items will be cleared up and that cost and intent were well documented. Another point that was made was that there is clear language in the East contract as to exactly what constitutes a CoC, and that if that card was played the company could (with some effort) restructure the deal to get around it. The other major benefit is that it puts us "on par" with the AMR guys, and in negotiating a new contract we will be a group of some 14,000+ pilots, rather than a group of 8,000+ working with/against a group of 6,000+.

As far as the SLI, Mr,. Szymznski detailed how that works, and it is a totally separate process from the MOU. I was initially inclined to vote against the MOU unless it addressed this, but after the explanation I feel satisfied that our concerns will be addressed in that process.

I have not cast a vote yet, but I'm clearly leaning toward supporting this. I know that mergers are crapshoots, and NO ONE can foresee just how this will turn out. Remember how U/PI was going to create a national powerhouse, then lost money for years? Who knows? I think that this steamroller is coming, we should probably at least start walking in the same direction.

Everyone needs to make their own decision, but listening to the loudest voices is clearly not the way to proceed on this. There are clearly many things in this MOU that I consider substandard, hopefully to be addressed in the JCBA negotiations. Educate yourself.

You put up a great post and I agree with all your points. Lots of emotion, everyone looking for payback from a company the doesn't exist, and trying to use a process to extract it that has failed us many times. Parker and his lawyers aren't going to be thrown by CoC and its ridiculous to even think that they lose any sleep over it. This MOU is temporary and will be replaced by a more robust contract negotiated by a large pilot group. That's when we'll have our leverage back. What's past is past and its time to look ahead at the potential we have to save what's left of our flying years.

 

[Ames]

Anyone that's so trivial and childish a creature as to find big fun in jumpseat denials is beneath contempt as a peson and most certainly as any semblance of a supposedly "professional" pilot....period. I don't believe any amount of suggestions for such infants to ever grow up will be of any use whatsoever. Such pathetic little babies must almost be viewed with a bit of honest sympathy, I suppose.

Unlike those that would pretend a final and binding arbitration decision doesn't apply to them.

 

[dca319]

No, only you potty mouth. JJ, how are you EVER going to Move2Clt?

Courtney, I was wondering how you came to associate me with move. Are you mad at the position I've taken and are trying to undercut me? Did I say something that reminded you of move? Or are you simply an ah?

 

[cleardirect]

Here is how it went down. My friend got turned down. He was talking to a buddy who was in training with his sim instructor. The sim guy let Skinner know and it was referred to the PHX Chief Pilot, who was actually a good guy and did the right thing. That is how Graham got called in. Ask him.
You, are the liar and denier. As Graham if you don't believe me.

Like I said if he is a freind of yours his is probably a dick.

So he went whining to Skinner. Who has nothing to do with the jump seat.

Unlike on the east getting called into the CPO does not mean he got in trouble. He was given a chance to explain his side of the story. If he had legitimate reason for denying the jump seat. He would be told thanks for stopping by have a nice day.

If it was someone like Cortney Borman or Mike Cleary or other known bad actors, known to the CPO to be bad actors they are not going to do a thing.

As much as you don't like it the captain is the authority for the jump seat. Even west captains. Whine all you want to management about being denied the jump seat. That boomarang can come right back at you.

I don't deny the jump seat unless the individual is being a dick I don't care what airline he works for. John Prater will never ride the flight deck.

 

[dca319]

Here is how it went down. My friend got turned down. He was talking to a buddy who was in training with his sim instructor. The sim guy let Skinner know and it was referred to the PHX Chief Pilot, who was actually a good guy and did the right thing. That is how Graham got called in. Ask him.
You, are the liar and denier. As Graham if you don't believe me.

"My friend" - nailed yourself right there Courtney.

 

[mrbreeze]

Everone should vote as they best see fit to do. For me personally; I'm interested only in how the instrument reads and what's defined and stated (or omitted) therein, and not what anyone later "explains" that it supposedly means. On that level; I can only immediately envision hosts of company lawyers in the future, equally enthusiastically "explaining" that it doesn't mean what we now hear. What it means is solely what's contained in the document. Not the conversation.

U would be doing yourself a favor by going to a roadshow.

The MOU was not negotiated between just Parker and USAPA......negotiations were amongst all 5 parties with the UCC being foremost at the table. An important background item on how the MOU turned out. UCC wants this as much as anyone.

The vagueness in writing the MOU was intentional with further processes built in to close the loopholes. For example, on day 1, pay, DC contributions, and a few other items will start immediately. However, many other items will be implimented later, such as scheduling and switching over to PBS. Point is, there will be kinks to work out.

Guys, it ain't perfect, but I think its the right route for us. We will soon be under APA with a new JCBA.

Go to a roadshow if u can, and of course, vote whats in your heart.

Just IMHO
Breeze

 

[Portly Dorman]

Speaking of a$$wipes, Capt. Steve Graham got me a years pay from Nic4Us. The PHX chief pilots are calling him in for counseling for abuse of the jump seat. Seems you kids have no idea or respect for the jumpseat that your predecessors worked to get. You are playing with something that is negotiated, and could very well be taken away. You kids just assume you can steal anything you want. Seniority, jumpseat, who knows what you will demand next. You need to learn a little respect and less entitlement.

Is this the same Courtney Borman who has been escorted out of the PHX crew room? Using the company banned yellow lanyard for a 'sun glasses holder'? After being warned to remove it in PHX showing up the same day in CLT wearing said holder? How was the one on one with Ed? You make one for him?

The same CB who tried to crucify a PHL rep for speaking at a PHX domicile meeting, accusing him of colluding with the PHX pilots? He was explaining your LOA93 grevience, the PHX rep didn't know anything about it. Guess you were just keeping Mike in the loop, right?

Maybe your past actions make anyone considering carrying you think twice.

 

[Ames]

I think your reluctance to ride West metal is justified, but also somewhat unfounded on an over exaggerated fear of denial. I really don't think this happens much at all.

Maybe this latest denial will prompt a response from the company.

All it would take is a read file memo from Hogg or Bular stating the problem, reminding the pilots of some diversionary topic like sterile cockpit below 10k, then mentioning that discussions about hot topic issues could be misinterpreted as harassment and cause unnecessary HR claims. Also, that discussion of company related issues ( the merger) are know to be very distracting . So, the official company policy is....no talk of union or company politics/policy/affairs etc. On the flight deck.

Then a reminder that jump seat is still the captains prerogative, be polite when making your request, wear the appropriate attire, speak when spoken to, and quit being jack wagons, cause the SWA guys are really getting a laugh from our infantile behavior!

Whenever I have an east jumpseater I request no discussion about company/union issues. One one occasion the jumpseater argued with me and told me I had no business telling him what he could and couldn't talk about. I left him at the gate. Justified? On three other occasions the request was honored until we got above 10,000. The only way to shut one guy up was to have him believe the police would meet him at the gate.

Policy or no policy, some guys just don't get it.

 

[nevergiveup]

Whenever I have an east jumpseater I request no discussion about company/union issues. One one occasion the jumpseater argued with me and told me I had no business telling him what he could and couldn't talk about. I left him at the gate. Justified? On three other occasions the request was honored until we got above 10,000. The only way to shut one guy up was to have him believe the police would meet him at the gate.

Policy or no policy, some guys just don't get it.

I just charge a flat rate!

 

[Portly Dorman]

Your pal turned down one of the nicest pilots here. You guys live up to the reputation of the castoffs of the industry. All the gate agents say your group is an odd one. Skinner wasn't happy. But you kids have no respect for the jumpseat and how you got it. You think you deserve it and demand it. It is a courtesy you abuse.

I let an east captain ride from PHX to CLT recently, he asked politely and it was no problem. He sat for 3+30 and said absolutely nothing, wouldnt engage in any conversation. He did say thank you when he left.

My only thought was what a miserable way to go through life, guess he's another of Woody's trust fund babies...

 

[Ames]

"in this manner the word is a noun"...? Per Websters; that's not even a word at all, much less definable as a noun. More correctly stated would be that it's a strung together, slang perjorative, best suited only to those incapable of more articulate expression.

Perhaps both yourself and doh nogo should consider some investment of time spent learning the english language, since you both seem more than a bit confused.

Thank you for the correction, Mr "Master's Degree in Psychology". I guess that trumps my MBA.

Just because you use more words than anyone else doesn't make you an expert on the English language. Just like having more psychotic episodes on the web board doesn't make you a better "psychologist".

 

[Portly Dorman]

Here is how it went down. My friend got turned down. He was talking to a buddy who was in training with his sim instructor. The sim guy let Skinner know and it was referred to the PHX Chief Pilot, who was actually a good guy and did the right thing. That is how Graham got called in. Ask him.
You, are the liar and denier. As Graham if you don't believe me.

Amazing how the west gets punished on third hand information from the Easter bunnies. If I were the pilot I question I'd be talking to employee relations in regards to personnel issues being discussed by management.

This sim guy work at 31 flavors too?

 

[fatherabraham]

To the YES folk:

B -Scale Revisited

ED 12 yr pay -E 190

New AA Cap $114.02

Current Jet Blue Cap - $151

 

[Zone5]

I attended the PHL "road show" yesterday and felt it was a worthwhile use of my time. It's always helpful to put faces on names and get some "sense" of the personalities involved.

The presentation was straightforward and pretty much what I had already read and was aware of. There were a few good questions which served to clarify a few issues.

Woody and "crew" were in attendance and provided the expected level of "discontent" and "skepticism", always entertaining. I mean hey, somebody has to counter the "Flavor-aide" drinking crowd.

Turnout was very good and most in attendance just sat and listened. Most "after the show" comments that I heard were supportive of passage, as am I. As far as the CoC provisions given up, I think we have achieved significant and quantifiable "value" for it in this MOU. Personally I'm just too tired, beat up and generally abused, after 25 years of being a AAA pilot, to walk away from this MOU and it's follow on JCBA with AMR.

As far as the SLI aspect of all this, according to the USAPA merger counsels' comments, the "data" from the THREE currently in use seniority lists (snapshot to be taken at the POR) will be turned into one list through negotiation and if necessary arbitration, there will be fences, the character of which is yet to be determined. The process to reach a JCBA and subsequent SLI is spelled out and is what it is. It doesn't sound to me that either the ALPA East-West TA or any input from AOL will be a part of the process and it is doubtful that they would be successful in forcing their way into the room or tossing a "wrench" into the proceedings via an injunction. There's that "Ripe Thing" again. Not to worry though Westies, once all the dust settles, you can "have at it". The ability to influence the provisions of the resultant "New AMR", ratified JCBA, through the court system.......well........ anything's possible! Be sure and e-mail me at the retirement home when that happens, in the mean time, I'm "moving on".


seajay