Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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I attended the Philly roadshow on the MOU yesterday. I suggest that if there is any way for each of you to attend, you should do so.

Much of the info that was provided cleared up my questions and confusion about the MOU.

I changed my vote to "YES".

breeze

Breeze votes yes. The pay looks good. As usual, there is always a hidden gem in Jerry Glass written documents, MOUs, grievance rejections. LOA s. Always. He is a master of crafting a document which will confound you, and arbitrators. He is a lawyer.
Here comes yours: Hummel has been dragging his heels on anything seniority based going into the MOU. He hasn't even passed a seniority list that I am aware of.
The minute the East pilots with the help of West pilots approve this MOU, here comes the injunction in PHX. Maybe Wake himself will get his biased hands on it. Leonidas makes the case for the seniority list being in contention, a valid claim now. Ask Cleardirect about that. He has extremely close ties to Ferguson.They pass their list across. This thing spins on for another few years in court. That, is the plan. This is why they keep the gloves off Hummel. He is doing EXACTLY what they want. Meanwhile, Gerry Glass and Parker sit back and claim the pay they promised you is in contention because of ongoing litigation. Litigation they contribute to in the past, and now the future.
I hope you get your raise Greeter and Breeze. I have seen this little operation and so have you. I just am amazed you are going to fall for it, again. I vote NO for any and all documents with Parker and Glass hands on them. Every time. I guess you think LOA 93 was written quickly around the time of bankruptcy. It actually was written long before that time. You are aware Gerrold Glass was and is in the employ of AMR and has involvement in their bankruptcy arent you? Amazing coincidence isn't it?
I guarantee you are going to be fooled by it. Just like a lot of you are fooled by DCA319. They rolled this Trojan Horse out the minute the MOU became active.
Pay attention, keep your eye on the prize. That is the AWAPPA mantra.
I have read Walmart Greeter say Parker had nothing to do with our pension. I ask him to Google this : Seabury Group USAirways pilots pension termination. They tried to do this AWA U deal over a year prior to the actual event. Read the big reason it was put off. That's right, your pension was THE obstacle. Bankruptcy 2. Took care of that very nicely. Enjoy your read.


APRIL 24, 2012


Testimony continues in American's Section 1113 hearing



NEW YORK _ The American Airlines’ Section 1113 hearing continued today with union cross examination of an expert witness for the carrier and anticipation over testimony later today of a key American witness, Beverly Goulet, the chief restructuring officer in charge of the business plan to emerge from bankruptcy.​
According to American spokesman Bruce Hicks, Goulet is central to the carrier’s case being made in bankruptcy court that its labor contracts be rescinded so that it can emerge as a viable stand-alone carrier.​
She is also vice president of corporate development and treasurer.​
Another central American witness, Jeff Brundage, senior vice president of human resources, is expected to testify Thursday but told reporters Monday evening that “it is pretty clear that this 1113 process is not something you win or lose.”​
“It’s a way to reach consensual agreement,” Brundage said.​
Under the bankruptcy rules of the Railway Labor Act, the carrier and unions must continue negotiating throughout the process, even if the judge agrees with American and abrogates the existing labor contracts.

In morning cross examination, Jerry Glass, president of F&H Solutions Group, a human resources and labor relations consulting company, told lawyers for American’s unions that he found that after comparing American’s labor costs to other carriers, based on pay, work rules and benefits, that “it’s easy to conclude their costs are going to be higher.”

Even before the second bankruptcy filing of 2004, one of the alternatives US Airways Group explored was a possible merger with America West, as the two airlines had complementary networks and similar labor costs. The parties held preliminary discussions and conducted due diligence from February through July 2004. Ultimately, these talks ended due to issues related to labor, pension, and benefit costs. By December 2004, US Airways had cut labor costs significantly. Its investment adviser, the Seabury Group, suggested putting the airline up for sale. The following month, US Airways Group and America West Holdings resumed their discussions. On May 19, 2005, both airlines officially announced the merger deal, structured as a reverse takeover. Financing for the deal was supplied by outside investors including Airbus S.A.S., an aircraft manufacturing subsidiary of EADS, the European aerospace consortium. Air Wisconsin Airlines Corporation, operator of numerous US Airways Express flights, and ACE Aviation Holdings, the parent company of Air Canada, also bought shares in the combined airline. The merged airline retained the US Airways name to emphasize its national scope, as well as to capitalize on US Airways' worldwide recognition. On September 13, 2005, America West shareholders voted to approve the merger agreement, and three days later the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Eastern District of Virginia approved US Airways' emergence from bankruptcy, allowing the merger to close on September 27.
 
MEC Resolutions
Special MEC Meeting, 2/15/08
Washington, DC

Moved by Jones/Rogers

WHEREAS the US Airways and America West MECs’ Three Man Steering Committees
were unable to reach agreement on seniority integration issues, and

WHEREAS the US Airways MEC/JNC and the America West MEC/JNC must reach
agreement on a comprehensive contract proposal, including seniority integration issues,
prior to resuming JNC negotiations with US Airways management,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the status quo consisting of separate operations,
under the terms of the Transition Agreement, be maintained until such time as the
America West and US Airways MECs engage in the process as mandated by the
Executive Council to devise a mutually acceptable solution to outstanding seniority
integration and contract issues.

Passes Unanimously
__________________________________________________________________
Subject: AAA Steering Group Appreciation
Moved by Ciabattoni/Brookman

BE IT RESOLVED that the AAA MEC acknowledges and appreciates the hard work of
the AAA MEC Steering Group on behalf of the AAA pilots, and that the principles
established by the AAA MEC were never compromised.

Passes by Acclamation

Would this be old news from a union that doesn't exist anymore? We all know that those agreements (I just said AGREEMENTS!!) don't exist anymore, remember Usapa law trumps all other law. (Just ask Mark King, he loved telling the westies that)

Your point would be that usapa hasn't moved us pass a nearly 5 year old agreement? That the more democratic pilot based union has failed?

Did I miss anything?

PD!!
 
Breeze votes yes. The pay looks good. As usual, there is always a hidden gem in Jerry Glass written documents, MOUs, grievance rejections. Always.
Here comes yours: Hummel has been dragging his heels on anything seniority based going into the MOU. He hasn't even passed a seniority list that I am aware of.
The minute the East pilots with the help of West pilots approve this MOU, here comes the injunction in PHX. Maybe Wake himself will get his biased hands on it. Leonidas makes the case for the seniority list being in contention, a valid claim now. Ask Cleardirect about that. He has extremely close ties to Ferguson. Extremely.They pass their list across. This thing spins on for another few years in court. That, is the plan. This is why they keep the gloves off Hummel. He is doing EXACTLY what they want. Meanwhile, Gerry Glass and Parker sit back and claim the pay they promised you is in contention because of ongoing litigation. Litigation they contribute to in the past, and now the future.
I hope you get your raise Greeter and Breeze. I have seen this little operation and so have you. I just am amazed you are going to fall for it, again. I vote NO for any and all documents with Parker and Glass hands on them. Every time.
I guarantee you are going to be fooled by it. Just like a lot of you are fooled by DCA319. They rolled this Trojan Horse out the minute the MOU became active.
An injunction just might be the straw that triggers the sale of PHX.
 
Too bad that Captains on both sides have chosen the jumpseat as a weapon against each other. It used to be off limits to do such a thing. Now, I purposely avoid West jumpseat because I just don't want to deal with the BS. I'm sure plenty of West pilots do the same thing. Isn't there some way to restore the sanity here?
Oh I don’t know maybe if usapa apologizes for suing west pilots for RICO and repays those legal expenses.

Maybe apologize for falsely accusing west pilots of stealing Id’s and repays their expenses.

Maybe the usapa attorneys that say they represent ALL US Airways pilots start to represent west pilots instead of only the DOH demand.

Maybe if usapa repays the $2.5 million that usapa cost the west pilots because Tracy Parrella because she refused to arbitrate the distance learning grievance or the ACARS grievance.

Maybe if east pilots had not delayed and demanded separate ops for 8 years while taking every benefit of this merger while the west pilots stagnated.

Maybe when a$$holes like the guys trying to keep the CLT reps from getting recalled and blaming the west pilots for every evil that has fallen upon east pilots and trying to make up bad careers on the backs of west pilots.

Just maybe then some sanity might return as a single pilot group instead of demanding separate ops and separate pilots groups.

You guys all complain about how much you have given up and you need to be repaid for all your losses. Well the west wants to be repaid for all our losses caused by east pilots. The millions in legal fees, wasted dues and lost contract improvements.

That is when sanity will be restored around here. When east pilots stop acting insane.
 
As long as possible works for me. During which time, the current separate ops continues (read East keeps their attrition and advancements) while collecting substantially higher pay and DC contributions. What's not to like?


seajay
As long as you get yours screw everyone else right.
 
I have seen this little operation and so have you. I just am amazed you are going to fall for it, again.

Indeed. The whole group, both east and west, must send management to sleep chuckling away, and with very contented smiles on their faces.
 
Its not an issue of telling you what will happen if you don't buy now. No one can. Its all about how you look at it. Are you the buyer or the seller?

If you are making a buying decision you know what it costs and you know what happens when you agree to buy it now. You have control. Its the devil you know.

If you approach it as a seller you don't know what the buyer will do. Its isn't up to you. The buyer will tell you your product isn't really worth what you want for it, he laughs at the thought he would bother to come back tomorrow, and he says he can get what you have anywhere else down the street. If you believe him and he meets your selling point, you sell. If you think he is telling you a story and he doesn't meet your minimum price then you tell him no, and you don't control what the buyer might do in the future. Scary. Its the devil you don't know.

The world is full of buyers. Its comfy. Its a bird in the hand worth two in the bush.

DUI will get the MOU, and the buyers will once again learn the reason for the adage, buyer beware.

Buying and selling. Not a bad analogy. Problem is we are getting wildly varying appraisals of the sale item, and when it went on the market last time it got no bids.

Tell you what PHX. My vote is for sale, but just to you. I will vote no in exchange for you word that if you are wrong you will admit it. You tally up the losses and say "Yeah, I cost you that." If you are right I will say "PHX was right! He showed me the light!"

Nobody admits their mistakes at this airline and the letter from a few pages back describing the CLT reps actions is just to provide cover so they won't have to. Just look at onboardgate. Pretty clear failure, everyone elses fault.

With that in mind are you voting for the recall of the CLT reps? After all, they voted to put this abomination in front of our weak minded, spineless pilots.
 
man, cleardirect...
You're toxic. Have much of a family life? Kick the dog daily?
Things will improve, you'll get older and then you'll retire. Life's goes on.
Suck it up and be a man.
 
I will vote no in exchange for you word that if you are wrong you will admit it.

I'd take that Pi, and go further to state that I sincerely hope that my thinking on this proves to be not only wrong but completely so at every level. Sadly..nothing within the document, nor any notions of history, currently afford me the happy thought that my concerns are at all unjustified.

We've all got to call this one as we see it.
 
Oh I don’t know maybe if usapa apologizes for suing west pilots for RICO and repays those legal expenses.

Maybe apologize for falsely accusing west pilots of stealing Id’s and repays their expenses.

Maybe the usapa attorneys that say they represent ALL US Airways pilots start to represent west pilots instead of only the DOH demand.

Maybe if usapa repays the $2.5 million that usapa cost the west pilots because Tracy Parrella because she refused to arbitrate the distance learning grievance or the ACARS grievance.

Maybe if east pilots had not delayed and demanded separate ops for 8 years while taking every benefit of this merger while the west pilots stagnated.

Maybe when a$$holes like the guys trying to keep the CLT reps from getting recalled and blaming the west pilots for every evil that has fallen upon east pilots and trying to make up bad careers on the backs of west pilots.

Just maybe then some sanity might return as a single pilot group instead of demanding separate ops and separate pilots groups.

You guys all complain about how much you have given up and you need to be repaid for all your losses. Well the west wants to be repaid for all our losses caused by east pilots. The millions in legal fees, wasted dues and lost contract improvements.

That is when sanity will be restored around here. When east pilots stop acting insane.

Some of those things should happen, but probably won't. Is it likely that an individual jumpseat rider is responsible for them? Perhaps he/she was totally against them. Perhaps they stood up , but were shouted down. Individual, indiscriminate retribution just escalates things.

Recently I had a westie present me with a JS form that he had filed out with HP under the airline. The day before I had a frustrating interaction with some west pilots, very insulting. This would have been the perfect time for retribution. He came up as the door was closing and I could have told him that when his JS form matched his ID then come back and try again, as HP was not an airline and his ID said he was a US pilot. It was the last flight of the night. I'll be honest, in the mood I was in it crossed my mind as I saw the HP code as a stick in the eye. I decided it wasn't worth it, that it would just give him ammo to call an eastie an ahole. I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt that it was just habit. He turned out to be a nice guy and we had a pleasant ride.
 
I went to the PHL roadshow as well. Right now, I am inclined to vote for the MOU, and here's why: All the arguments against were clearly emotional and tied to some kind of perceived "payback" that East pilots are due. I, for one, don't believe that the company ever would concede that since the East pilots agreed to LOA 93 that they owe them ANYTHING. Sounds like another "grieve it and lose it" scenario. The other arguments were concerning the vagueness of the language, but BOTH of our lawyers present ensured us that the language was as solid as any contract can ever be, and that the few ambiguous items will be cleared up and that cost and intent were well documented. Another point that was made was that there is clear language in the East contract as to exactly what constitutes a CoC, and that if that card was played the company could (with some effort) restructure the deal to get around it. The other major benefit is that it puts us "on par" with the AMR guys, and in negotiating a new contract we will be a group of some 14,000+ pilots, rather than a group of 8,000+ working with/against a group of 6,000+.

As far as the SLI, Mr,. Szymznski detailed how that works, and it is a totally separate process from the MOU. I was initially inclined to vote against the MOU unless it addressed this, but after the explanation I feel satisfied that our concerns will be addressed in that process.

I have not cast a vote yet, but I'm clearly leaning toward supporting this. I know that mergers are crapshoots, and NO ONE can foresee just how this will turn out. Remember how U/PI was going to create a national powerhouse, then lost money for years? Who knows? I think that this steamroller is coming, we should probably at least start walking in the same direction.

Everyone needs to make their own decision, but listening to the loudest voices is clearly not the way to proceed on this. There are clearly many things in this MOU that I consider substandard, hopefully to be addressed in the JCBA negotiations. Educate yourself.
 
Maybe when a$$holes like the guys trying to keep the CLT reps from getting recalled .....

I'd ask all to properly note what huge fans of the recall attempt the most rabid, east-hating west folks are. What's just that fact alone tell you about it? If that's of no concern; consider those from the east that are furiously fllashing pom poms around for it notably include such ardent supporters of the nic as traderjake...Just sayin' here.
 
I'd take that Pi, and go further to state that I sincerely hope that my thinking on this proves to be not only wrong but completely so at every level. Sadly..nothing within the document, nor any notions of history, currently afford me the happy thought that my concerns are at all unjustified.

We've all got to call this one as we see it.

Well, if PHX accepts I will change my vote. I am pretty confident that it will pass anyway.

I completely agree that we have to call it as we see it and have no problem with that. Heck, I'm not 100% sure a yes vote is the right way to go and am hoping I don't have to admit that it was a mistake. What frustrates me is the manner some make the argument. That and I believe some will vote no, just to have cover, but hoping it will pass.
 
As far as the SLI, Mr,. Szymznski detailed how that works, and it is a totally separate process from the MOU.

Just one question here = WHY would/should this instrument be so crafted? What possible point exists in intentionally not defining, within the agreement, exactly how the seniority issue will be addressed?
 
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