Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[dca319]

Watch the F/A group. They know how to negotiate.

You can't be serious.

 

[EastUS1]

That is why they ask for it. It is a potential dealbreaker. That is USAPA s ace in the hole. You have a company that just posted record profits. There is absolutely no reason to take a substandard offer. The language is hazy. The money is not enough. Tell them to come back with another offer.

Well said sir.

 

[EastUS1]

True, there was duress. But was not the initial offer proffered by the company better than when we ended up with...?

What even remotely possible point do you have here? Do you now deny that the currently considered MOU isn't superior to the first offering?

Are you willfully oblvious to the fact that the APA folks not only dumped the supposedly "last, best offer" but the people who swished around the pom poms for it. Have not their people now done far better by doing so?

"True, there was duress..." Where's any such duress, sufficient to inspire some perverse desire to rush head-long into anything to be found now?

 

[Black Swan]

You can't be serious.

Yes, their past negotiations have gotten more vacation and better scheduling. They have more vacation than you do as we speak.An East pilot pays far more in medical. How about the trade board ETB language? Best scheduling system in the airline industry, hands down. If you were really an East pilot, you would know it.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Swan said: "Watch the F/A group. They know how to negotiate."

You are not serious, are you?

Greeter

 

[Pi brat]

Please try to get this. This comes from the APA and the NAC.

1 Pilot data consisting of DOH, longevity, seat position, etc is exchanged between pilot groups. The order of the pilots in the data being exchanged is irrelevant.

2 Each union then takes the other unions DATA (not list) and then orders it and integrates it into their own list.

3 Each union then comes back to the table and exchanges their respective lists. They will differ from one another because of differing priorities in their methodology for integration. We, obviously, are looking for a DOH list. They're looking for a slotting-type list.

4 Then each side will try to meet in the middle with their methodology. That will fail.

5 Arbitration.

IMHO, the APA will take our data and order it in accordance to the Nicolau award and then slot us into their list. Again, IMHO, it'll be done to avoid any potential litigation.
DOH won't work on our end. It failed miserably before and it will fail again. The last few mergers have proven this.

I'm trying to listen to your arguments because unlike so many here I do not KNOW how the SLI will go. But I cannot follow the above.

It may not be written into MB, but one of the essential tenants of SLI has been that a pilot of one company will not move ahead of his/her own pilots. You cannot not do that if you don't work from a LIST. Correct? As End of Alpa said, if the APA could reorder our list, we could reorder theirs. What if we reordered their list to move the TWA guys to DOH? Someone has to have a list to work from, and I cannot see the logic in the other side getting to choose the list they want to use. USAPA is our CBA with all the rights and RESPONSIBILITIES that come with it. Since we have been told that it is legal to reorder the list and that since the legal question of a LUP has not been answered, it seems to me that what will happen is that USAPA will present the DOH list, AOL will immediately file and injunction request and we will see what happens. But again, I don't KNOW.

One of the theories floating around from west pilots has been that the APA will be our union and they will provide the list for arbitration. I pointed out to clear yesterday that the MOU says otherwise. In the latest NAC update they say this:

• 4 months for a single carrier petition to be filed with the NMB
• 6-8 months for the NMB to issue a decision

So the APA will likely not be our CBA until somewhere around a year after the effective date. The SLI timeline calls for arbitration to start within 270 days of the effective date.

 

[EastUS1]

This thing could go so far as to have all the widebody flying go to AA. You better be prepared for that outcome.

But wait sir! Umm....well....ummm...On second thought: That (and far worse) DOES seem possible within the contractual language, or lack thereof. Perhaps an enthusiastic proponent of this offered MOU can alleviate our concerns here by explaining the specifically contained "protections" that will unquestionably prevent anything of that sort from happening....?

 

[Phoenix]

Now this might change things. Can you quote for me where Doug says he can't have an AA merger with the CofC? I remember a crew news where he said just the opposite....
.

Crew news is nothing more than DUI doing an end run around our reps and coming directly to negotiate and shape beliefs of the pilot group. And it works.

If DUI didn't need us to ratify an MOU then he would not have even bothered to waste his time on MOU 1, he would not have pulled MOU 1 to avoid the risk of it being voted down by all the pilots, and he wouldn't have bothered with MOU 2 that costs him more money. If it were possible for him to just do the merger without us, in spite of our LPPs, he would have done it already, because it would be easier and cheaper.

DUI will get his MOU and once it passes we will get to see what is in it. Comb your hair and straighten your tie. It's the time of our life!

 

[Pi brat]

Yes, their past negotiations have gotten more vacation and better scheduling. They have more vacation than you do as we speak.An East pilot pays far more in medical. How about the trade board ETB language? Best scheduling system in the airline industry, hands down. If you were really an East pilot, you would know it.

Swan,

All that you speak of came years ago and much of it on our coattails. Every concession they took came after the company got the big money out of us and they didn't really have to push them.

Today they are being told that they have to sign an inferior contract to even be included in an MOU. The NMB is saying they are ready to park them. Not sure I'd hold them up as an example.

 

[EastUS1]

If DUI didn't need us to ratify an MOU then he would not have even bothered to waste his time on MOU 1, he would not have pulled MOU 1 to avoid the risk of it being voted down by all the pilots, and he wouldn't have bothered with MOU 2 that costs him more money. If it were possible for him to just do the merger without us, in spite of our LPPs, he would have done it already, because it would be easier and cheaper.

"If it were possible for him to just do the merger without us, in spite of our LPPs, he would have done it already, because it would be easier and cheaper."

How's it even possible for people not to see anything so utterly obvious as that?

 

[nevergiveup]

I'm trying to listen to your arguments because unlike so many here I do not KNOW how the SLI will go. But I cannot follow the above.

It may not be written into MB, but one of the essential tenants of SLI has been that a pilot of one company will not move ahead of his/her own pilots. You cannot not do that if you don't work from a LIST. Correct? As End of Alpa said, if the APA could reorder our list, we could reorder theirs. What if we reordered their list to move the TWA guys to DOH? Someone has to have a list to work from, and I cannot see the logic in the other side getting to choose the list they want to use. USAPA is our CBA with all the rights and RESPONSIBILITIES that come with it. Since we have been told that it is legal to reorder the list and that since the legal question of a LUP has not been answered, it seems to me that what will happen is that USAPA will present the DOH list, AOL will immediately file and injunction request and we will see what happens. But again, I don't KNOW.

One of the theories floating around from west pilots has been that the APA will be our union and they will provide the list for arbitration. I pointed out to clear yesterday that the MOU says otherwise. In the latest NAC update they say this:

• 4 months for a single carrier petition to be filed with the NMB
• 6-8 months for the NMB to issue a decision

So the APA will likely not be our CBA until somewhere around a year after the effective date. The SLI timeline calls for arbitration to start within 270 days of the effective date.

I am betting they will agree to a list in the first 90 days. I also work for US Airways.

 

[Black Swan]

Swan,

All that you speak of came years ago and much of it on our coattails. Every concession they took came after the company got the big money out of us and they didn't really have to push them.

Today they are being told that they have to sign an inferior contract to even be included in an MOU. The NMB is saying they are ready to park them. Not sure I'd hold them up as an example.

I stand by my statement. Historically they have out negotiated us on every quality of life issue. Did they get a lower pay scale for Metrojet? Do they have a lower pay scale for the 190? Do you have the same vacation as they do? Can you trade trips, drop trips, and schedule anywhere near what they do?
Bottom line is this: when this MOU is ratified and you find out just what you gave up and held in your hand, you are going to be absolutely livid. They will have a much better deal in the end. I guarantee it.
The company did not push them because the could not push them. The easy taking has always been the pilot group. If the F/A group had CofC language, the company would have to fight for it. The company always knew they could pluck C of Control from us. It is happening as we speak. Gerry Glass knows you better than you know you.

 

[dca319]

Well said sir.

Well said?!?! You don't think Mr. Parker and all of his highly paid lawyers haven't figured out a way around this? Do you think they would have taken this this far if that was a "deal breaker." Me thinks thou giveth us too much credit. Again with the overreaching.

 

[Pi brat]

Crew news is nothing more than DUI doing an end run around our reps and coming directly to negotiate and shape beliefs of the pilot group. And it works.

If DUI didn't need us to ratify an MOU then he would not have even bothered to waste his time on MOU 1, he would not have pulled MOU 1 to avoid the risk of it being voted down by all the pilots, and he wouldn't have bothered with MOU 2 that costs him more money. If it were possible for him to just do the merger without us, in spite of our LPPs, he would have done it already, because it would be easier and cheaper.

DUI will get his MOU and once it passes we will get to what is in it. Comb your hair and straighten your tie. It's the time of our life!

Your opinion is not proof. I'm waiting.

Doug is not running this thing himself. If you remember with the DL merger attempt he told us he didn't need us or our CofC. This time he is trying to learn from his mistakes and ACT like the reasonable, nice guy. So, as I see it, he is playing to the UCC. They are trying to get the most money they can, they don't care about anything else. Horton and his gang are trying to get their payout, so for that they need to emerge in control. To that end they are using our merger mess against Parker. If Parker and the UCC can get the MOU, they can say "See, this takes care of those labor issues, nothing to see here!" If not, they will go forward, but in a hostile way, and then they won't be willing to buy our cooperation, they will just use the savings from LOA 93 to pay for the more expensive merger. I think when AA management makes a decision, our leverage is gone.

That's how I see it, I may be wrong. But it's not out of fear that I think this, it's my logic. It may be wrong, but I think yours is. We'll see, but either way, I'll be fine. Thanks, and waiting for, what was that Jimbo used to say? Oh yeah, PROOF. ;-)

 

[dca319]

"If it were possible for him to just do the merger without us, in spite of our LPPs, he would have done it already, because it would be easier and cheaper."

How's it even possible for people not to see anything so utterly obvious as that?

He is doing it without us. Anyone remember who went to whom looking for an MOU? Let's just say Parker didn't knock on our door. Anyone want to bet that if we vote down the MOU that this merger still happens?