Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[traderjake]

That's been the problem with this pilot group for decades...no backbone.

Some people confuse courage with being stupid.

 

[A320 Driver]

Now after being told to STFU on the AWAPA web board because of my posting on here I better clarify a few things:

1. I don’t support DOH
   
2. I don’t think the lower end of the NIC was fair and I don’t think the most senior AWA captain should have been placed 500 down. If you want to say it balances out and ends up being fair, then so be it.

Bean

We all have our perspectives, don't we Bean? I don't think any method that an arbitrator would turn his nose up at is workable, and that includes DOH. On the other hand, I was an A330 Captain when this NIC came along, but NIC chose to put West A320 Captains senior to me. Why? He chose to ignore any sort of LOS credit. Why? There are no answers really. All that being said, I am more comfortable with a three arbitrator panel deciding our fate than any other scenario I can think of. And I guess the thing that attracts me the most is it's done, for good, and I can forget this nonsense we've all endured for the last few years.

 

[A320 Driver]

dca...that's exactly what the company wants the NAC to think. Don't you get it? Negotiations 101.
Tempe wants this in a BAD way...no way do they not still have wiggle room. Bullshit.

greeter...aw' never mind...you're a lost cause. But, I'll stay tuned for any more cliches you've got.

I think one of the arts of negotiation is knowing when you've stretched the rubber band as tight as you should. That is where we are in the opinion of the NAC and our advisors. I'll go with them.

 

[end_of_alpa]

See? You do get it. Question is whether or not the arbitrators agree with us.

The question is whether the MC gives the APA the heads up that that's where we'll go if they don't see it our way during the ED + 90. If that is what you're been implying this whole time then we agree. I just don't have the confidence in the MC.

 

[PullUp]

Oh yes. Where are my manners?! This East pilots altruism for his West brothers really is awe inspiring...even though I am not one of them. Never mind the fact that he was...without question...on LOA93 for several years longer than he had to because of the stupid USAPA choice. Why? because of his insistance he steal from the West what HE THOUGHT he was owed depite the fact he was unable to negotiate, mediate, or arbitrate to his ridiculous expectations...why noy just try to steal what you cant get any oyher way? Nice. The OTHER way to look at it is his type is sprung loaded to make the wrong decisions costing himself and EVERYBODY ELSE tons more money they can ill afford to lose. USAPA delivered a Billion+ dollars of savings to Parker on a Silver platter. If I was a us air pilot I'd say that was enough...not emotionally charged Eastholes, they'd rather martyr themselves to the end just so they can stay broke, bitter and angry. These idiots are beyond repair and can't get out of their own way.

You need help, buddy.

 

[EastUS1]

We paid dearly with LOA 93, and the only ace up our sleve is the CoC.
It's worth more than what the NAC is bringing to us in the form of an MOU.
Re-read the MOU. The veribage is very clear, very clear. They know that it's a well worded clause and they can't get out of it unless we waive it.
The company was smart and held hostages knowing that it may come down to this...E190 and Westies.
They can't and should not be sacrafical lambs.
First blush is to send the MOU back and get more lump sum...for everyone. Say $100M+

Agreed.

 

[EastUS1]

It is extremely clear to me that the company and UCC want and NEED the CoC to disappear. A no vote, contrary to what they say, will bring them back to the table.
They want it bad - make 'em pay for it. This is our last opportunity.
Cheers.

Indeed. If so many, quite incomprehsibly, see no existing and unique leverage at this time...well...one must ask of them WHEN they'd EVER expect to have any?

 

[EastUS1]

We negotiated our way into a much worse LOA 93 than the original offer the company put out..

LOA93, whatever else is true, was pushed in under the duress of bankruptcy. Do those conditions currently apply here? Why even bring it up then, unless you're some strange fan of ALWAYS waving a White Flag at the very first opportunity?

Was the first offered MOU better than what's now being put forth?....Didn't think so either. Didn't the APA folks properly improve on their situation by not only rejecting their initially offered BS, but also replacing those that were cheerleaders for it's acceptance? Didn't said cheerleaders (that were subsequently replaced) not also unequivocally tell them that it was the "last, best offer"? OK then....Next argument....? Note: The replaced observation for the APA isn't any suggestion of endorsement for the CLT recall, which, if successful, I'd expect to see result in even more cheerleaders for easy surrender brought on board.

 

[EastUS1]

Some people confuse courage with being stupid.

Sigh! Just kindly spare us all such BS. "Some people" will never know what the term courage even means. This isn't any battlefield scenario requiring iron spines and steely grit Jake. It's merely a situation that should be given serious thought and have every effort made to maximize gains.

Frankly; I find it impossible to believe that intelligent people everywhere aren't up in arms, just over the written language in this wholly inadequate MOU just for starters, but I suppose those that so easily trust won't or simply can't make the effort to see the glaring holes there.

 

[Graceson]

Indeed. If so many, quite incomprehsibly, see no existing and unique leverage at this time,...well...one must ask of them WHEN they'd EVER expect to have any?

And so many more either don't bother with balloting, or they vote with complacency. It would take an unsantioned, unofficila debate of the issues to possible educate by way of entertainment. Most are morethe wired for the hype of reality shows anyway. Much like a presidential debate, each side must come prepared with the facts, strategy, and convincing oratory to disarm the opponent' reason. Now that's a road show voters will attend...if it were broadcast on the web, that is.

 

[EastUS1]

Don't play poker if you don't know your hand.

You obviously don't have anything in the way of real skill or any "game" to offer there. I'd happily sit at the same table with you. It's more an issue of "knowing" the hand(s) of others. Pretty much the ONLY unquestionably concise verbage within the MOU concerns the surrender of CoC. Your thoughts on that sir?

 

[EastUS1]

And so many more either don't bother with balloting, or they vote with complacency. It would take an unsantioned, unofficila debate of the issues to possible educate by way of entertainment. Most are morethe wired for the hype of reality shows anyway. Much like a presidential debate, each side must come prepared with the facts, strategy, and convincing oratory to disarm the opponent' reason. Now that's a road show voters will attend...if it were broadcast on the web, that is.

"Most are more the wired for the hype of reality shows anyway."

Indeed. What I'd think any and all intelligent pilots should find offensive here, is being treated as and assumed to be such mindless buffoons, via the "glossy sales brochure" alone.

 

[nycbusdriver]

AAnd you get $160/hr to fly across the big ocean in an A330 and brag about staying on LOA93. Priceless!

Please quote my post that says this.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Here are the answers to the Winter Exam:

Open Book Test Questions for your Negotiating Advisory Committee

The Compass Correction has urged our fellow pilots to read the MOU and associated USAPA Communiqués on the subject of the Virtual Merger of the bankrupted American Airlines and the highly profitable US Airways. After reading Friday's update from the NAC, we believe a test of their knowledge may be in order. WE URGE EVERYONE TO ATTEND THE NAC ROAD SHOWS!
1.    What is the total dollar value of concessions by US Airways Pilots (East) for the following concessionary contracts (RA, LOA 84, LOA 85 - loss of pension, LOA 91 and LOA 93) since 2002?
Answer= The NAC has stated in the Road Shows an estimate approaching 8 billion dollars
2.    What has been the monetary value for the Company and shareholders, in keeping the West Pilots at their December 31, 2006 amendable date contract?
Answer= Approximately 179 million in retroactive pay
3.    What was the gross profit for LCC (US Airways) for 2010, 2011and 2012?
4.    What were the financial results for American Airlines, during the same period?

Answer=        
                                        AMR 2010 LCC 2010     AMR 2011    LCC 2011 AMR 2012 LCC 2012

Operating Revenue                 22.17b         11.91             23.98b         13.06b        24.86b         13.83b
Net Income                      -471m            502m         -1.98b             71m            -1.88b         538m


5.    What have the West and East Pilots received in the way of return value, for the concessions totaled above in answer in 1 & 2?
Answer= 35 million Jan 2010, 35 million Jan 2011, Stock, Profit Sharing, a job, and a Opportunity to merge with American

6.    If American Airlines pilots received 13.5% equity in The New American Airlines and that equals $1,000,000,000; what is the total value of The New American Airlines?
Answer= 7.4 Billion

7.    Is there a date certain for the "Effective Date"?
Answer= Not Possible to know exactly when a POR will be approved. However it is estimated for July 2013 - provided that all required bankruptcy process elements have been completed successfully.

8.    If the POR date is protracted, is there any remuneration for the interest free loan being provided by the US Airways Pilots?
Answer= NO

9.    What agreement or tentative agreement contains the following contract language?

If the Company obtains a new equity investment in an amount greater than $250 million, the percentage of the economic value of the common equity, on a fully diluted basis, offered to the Association's members shall be reduced on a proportionate and appropriate (i.e., related to the size of the investment) basis to be determined in light of all of the relevant facts and circumstances.
A)    LBFO
B) Term Sheet
C)    MOU
Answer= D) LOA 93 "Equity" in terms pages 10-11

E)    Grimm's "Hansel and Gretel"
F)    LLBFO (CBA 2012)

10.    Extra credit Question: What is the net gain in value to the New American Airlines subsequent to a merger with LCC?
Answer= US Airways "estimates at least 1.2 billion in annual synergies" USAPA estimates it to be 1.5 billionFeel free to foward to all your friends.Greeter

 

[EastUS1]

This situation reads like a case study...you'all, including the NAC, are being sucked right into giving up the golden key. You can read the tea leaves a mile away.

I couldn't agree more completely.