Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

But 75% of that 80% will be retired before any fences expire. APA knows that, and if the fences are very high and very durable (which USAPA will be more than willing to agree on), they have no worries about DOH. APA knows that, too.




Even setting aside that the TA in which the Nicolau lives will be specifically superseded by the MTA, do you think ANYONE other than your 10% really cares about AoL and their clever (because he is milking you) lawyer?



Ah, I wish you had been in a leadership role at Wye River. Wiser words have not been spoken. Had AWA come off the "winning lottery ticket that they can't cash" (Scott Kirby), we wouldn't be in this mess. As is often said, a good arbitrated award is one where pretty much everybody is pissed off. The Cheshire Cat grins and "high fives" that predominated in PHX and LAS the day Nicolau released his abortion leads me to believe that it wasn't a fair list, and the west knows it.

If there is a merger we will merge this time. The APA is not going to want or allow separate ops. There will not be base fences. The APA is not going to accept 85% of the east pilots in the top 50% of the list. Fences will not protect the APA or west pilots from that kind of seniority loss.

The APA tried to lock TWA in STL that did not prevent APA from forcing the TWA boys to the bottom of the list. TWA was a bunch of old guys but did not accept DOH with them. Why would APA accept DOH with the east?

A merger means all pilots wil be mixed and moved. Fence will only protect aircraft. The APA is concerned about protect their 125 WB from us airways. Usapa will protect the tiny number of EB from APA. Usapa can't deny the WB from the west. We are all us airways pilot.

Yes. A lot of people care about the Nicolau. Courts, the company, APA and Leonidas. Arbitration a dont just disappear.


You may think that the west was not mad at the Nicolau. But you would be incorrect. Every west pilots lost relative seniority. The only reason the west was not screaming bloody murder was because DOH was not forced on us. We accepted the Nicolau as fair, not happy but it was not DOH.

The east did not get what you want DOH that is why you are upset.

DOH is in no way fair. How does getting DOH piss of the east equally? DOH violates your our fairness test.

 

[cleardirect]

I'm just curious, but don't you guys read the MOU? The MOU resets the argument because of....the vote! If the MOU is voted in. If not, same ole, same ole.

APA submits its list, USAPA submits theirs.

They both take 90 days to come up with a solution and if they don't, they get three arbitrators and argue their positions before them. That in a nutshell is all their is.

If you have an issue with it if the MOU gets voted in take it up with the merger committee.

Better yet, go ask Harper. (Oh that's right, his law firm gets no more money.)

Just like The usapa lawyers will get no more money. Those guys know they are out of a job. Marty has a job until the Nicolau is implemented.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Just like The usapa lawyers will get no more money. Those guys know they are out of a job. Marty has a job until the Nicolau is implemented.

Or until all the pilots on that list retire. Keep pounding that drum.

 

[dca319]

- "captains" (a term of endearment I wish Pan Am wold have never introduced).

Can you expand on this?

 

[dca319]

Sigh! It seems that I now must reasonably withdraw even the slightest suggestion for you read, analyze and at all think for yourself at any level. So be it. This isn't of any long-term, selfish concern to me, and you'll be the one living with the results of your "thinking". Once again: Good Luck!

I've read, outlined, highlighted, and attended a road show with a pad of questions. Nothing convinced me status quo is a better option than LOA 93. Not even close. You?

 

[dca319]

Well, yes, it is. Or, no, it isn't. Really depends on one's point of view.

Same as it was under ALPA so again I ask was it really ALPA or us that was the problem. We seem to look and act like we did under our former union.

 

[dca319]

I'm just curious, but don't you guys read the MOU? The MOU resets the argument because of....the vote! If the MOU is voted in. If not, same ole, same ole.

APA submits its list, USAPA submits theirs.

They both take 90 days to come up with a solution and if they don't, they get three arbitrators and argue their positions before them. That in a nutshell is all their is.

If you have an issue with it if the MOU gets voted in take it up with the merger committee.

Better yet, go ask Harper. (Oh that's right, his law firm gets no more money.)

Again, for anyone to think the Nicolau just disappears because the parties (minus the west class) wrote something that, at best, is ambiguous is being naive.
An arbitrated list doesn't simply disappear and everyone would be smart to keep it in that back of their minds at the very least and keep asking the tough questions. You think the Nicolau is buried so you move on, but what if it isn't buried and shows up later this year? Then what? Do we have a plan? What is our plan B? What is our merger committee going to do if APA's list has it and we go to arbitration? Are we going to stomp our feet and cry foul? Are we going to file an injunction? Do we even have cause for an injunction? Mark these words because I'm telling you I have a feeling that we'll be dealing with that list in a few months.

 

[dca319]

I'm just curious, but don't you guys read the MOU? The MOU resets the argument because of....the vote! If the MOU is voted in. If not, same ole, same ole.

APA submits its list, USAPA submits theirs.

They both take 90 days to come up with a solution and if they don't, they get three arbitrators and argue their positions before them. That in a nutshell is all their is.

If you have an issue with it if the MOU gets voted in take it up with the merger committee.

Better yet, go ask Harper. (Oh that's right, his law firm gets no more money.)

It may reset the argument but it doesn't preclude the APA from using the Nicolau to avoid potential litigation from AoL.

 

[nevergiveup]

If there is a merger we will merge this time. The APA is not going to want or allow separate ops. There will not be base fences. The APA is not going to accept 85% of the east pilots in the top 50% of the list. Fences will not protect the APA or west pilots from that kind of seniority loss.

The APA tried to lock TWA in STL that did not prevent APA from forcing the TWA boys to the bottom of the list. TWA was a bunch of old guys but did not accept DOH with them. Why would APA accept DOH with the east?

A merger means all pilots wil be mixed and moved. Fence will only protect aircraft. The APA is concerned about protect their 125 WB from us airways. Usapa will protect the tiny number of EB from APA. Usapa can't deny the WB from the west. We are all us airways pilot.

Yes. A lot of people care about the Nicolau. Courts, the company, APA and Leonidas. Arbitration a dont just disappear.


You may think that the west was not mad at the Nicolau. But you would be incorrect. Every west pilots lost relative seniority. The only reason the west was not screaming bloody murder was because DOH was not forced on us. We accepted the Nicolau as fair, not happy but it was not DOH.

The east did not get what you want DOH that is why you are upset.

DOH is in no way fair. How does getting DOH piss of the east equally? DOH violates your our fairness test.

Not happy, but salivating to get it implemented! USAPA will surely introduce DOH, but the final outcome will be something different as the process is supposed to use MB as I recall. 3 lists(snapshot)....one detergent.

 

[A320 Driver]

Not happy, but salivating to get it implemented! USAPA will surely introduce DOH, but the final outcome will be something different as the process is supposed to use MB as I recall. 3 lists(snapshot)....one detergent.

I think I mentioned this before. If you weren't furloughed at the time the NIC came out, an East pilot is better off in a slotting or ratio formula because of the 517 positions up front all being East. But that throws the furloughed guys under the bus. Using the same logic as the NIC, the 1500 or so AA pilots would be stapled to the bottom of the list, no matter their LOS. Either way, this is going to be some hayride. I still say we are all better off putting the whole thing under M/B and letting the arbitrators figure it out. Since it's federal law now, it would be a tough nut to crack in court, IMO.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Again, for anyone to think the Nicolau just disappears because the parties (minus the west class) wrote something that, at best, is ambiguous is being naive.
An arbitrated list doesn't simply disappear and everyone would be smart to keep it in that back of their minds at the very least and keep asking the tough questions. You think the Nicolau is buried so you move on, but what if it isn't buried and shows up later this year? Then what? Do we have a plan? What is our plan B? What is our merger committee going to do if APA's list has it and we go to arbitration? Are we going to stomp our feet and cry foul? Are we going to file an injunction? Do we even have cause for an injunction? Mark these words because I'm telling you I have a feeling that we'll be dealing with that list in a few months.

YOU ARE NOT READING THE MOU. What you're saying is NOT THE WAY IT WORKS.

The APA will get AA employmet data on AA pilots.

USAPA will get US employment data on US pilots.

APA works with THEIR data on what they think their data (AA) should go together with our data.

USAPA works with THEIR data on what they think their data (US) should go together with their data.

They advocate for their data and we advocate for our data. PERIOD.

Now I know US Airways is appealing but until they prevail, the existing law is as follows:

"IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. This judgment is binding on the following class: “All pilots employed by US Airways in September 2008 who were on the America West seniority list on September 20, 2005.”

The only issue pending is if the MOU as written has a "legitimate union purpose".

Well find that out after the final product of a SLI is complete.

 

[Metroyet]

Not happy, but salivating to get it implemented! USAPA will surely introduce DOH, but the final outcome will be something different as the process is supposed to use MB as I recall. 3 lists(snapshot)....one detergent.

What will be USAPAS Legitimate Union Purpose for submitting anything but the Nic award? Think it can survive judicial review and injunction? The ripeness issue disappears as well. Of course USAPA will refuse to submit the Nic. That's what the courts are for. They'll do it for them. Nothing in the alphabet soup of latest documents relieves USAPA of its DFR, need for an LUP, trumps labor law, or diminishes the Rights of the West Pilot Class.

USAPA has utterly WASTED 1/3rd of a pilots working career on nothing but a temper tantrum. No matter what happens, USAPA is dead. That, we should all be able to agree, is nothing but a good thing.

 

[end_of_alpa]

It may reset the argument but it doesn't preclude the APA from using the Nicolau to avoid potential litigation from AoL.

They can TRY to sue APA but APA is ONLY responsible for their side of the river in the SLI. Their guys, their data. Not ours. They don't make our argument, USAPA does.

USAPA will be in effect only for the purposes of the SLI issue if if goes that far.

YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SUE AND PREVAIL WITH APA.....EVER. EVER.

APA may eventually become the bargaining agent but the SLI they inherit emanates from the MOU and the SLI process therein.

You simply do not understand the legal effects of the MOU.

 

[dca319]

I still say we are all better off putting the whole thing under M/B and letting the arbitrators figure it out. Since it's federal law now, it would be a tough nut to crack in court, IMO.

And I agree. It makes the award rock solid and the chances of an injunction zero.

 

[cleardirect]

YOU ARE NOT READING THE MOU. What you're saying is NOT THE WAY IT WORKS.

The APA will get AA employmet data on AA pilots.

USAPA will get US employment data on US pilots.

APA works with THEIR data on what they think their data (AA) should go together with our data.

USAPA works with THEIR data on what they think their data (US) should go together with their data.

They advocate for their data and we advocate for our data. PERIOD.

Now I know US Airways is appealing but until they prevail, the existing law is as follows:

"IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. This judgment is binding on the following class: “All pilots employed by US Airways in September 2008 who were on the America West seniority list on September 20, 2005.”

The only issue pending is if the MOU as written has a "legitimate union purpose".

Well find that out after the final product of a SLI is complete.

The MOU does not have LUP. Usapa has specifically stated that the MOU is neutral on the Nicolau.

Usapa during seniority integration still has to treat the west fairly. Judge silver said that an arbitrated list is fair. A DOH list is not. So anything usapa presents will be compared to the Nicolau. Also usapa has to have a LUP. The MOU does not have one.

I will ask the question to you. You east guys say a list should equally piss off both sides. How does a DOH list piss off the east? It is exactly what you wanted from the start?

By your own definition DOH violates your fairness rule.

What happens if the APA wil only accept the Nicolau list for arbitration? You going to sue the APA? What if the arbitrators decide that that Nicolau list will be used? Going to stomp your feet and cry? Can't pull the majority card this time.

What if the company who has a seat at the table says they don't see a LUP and will only accept the nicoalu list? Because the Nicolau list has all of the required data for integration. It has been accepted by the company.

What has the company's complaint been in court? Rock and shard place. On one side the west will sue if the Nicolau is not used. On the other side usapa will perform a work stoppage. A joint contract completely removes the company fear of a strike. APA will not allow it and without section 6 no possibility of a strike. That leaves only the one problem for the company.

Litigation from the west if they don't use the Nicolau.

Without a strike threat what is the company goi g to argue in court why they can't use the Nicolau? What has Parker said about using the Nicolau? The union has a different view. Well if the new union agrees there is no more dispute.

The east pilot will be in the minority and causing problems that can be ended very quickly. Accept the arbitrated list. Go on to the next arbitration.