Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Walmartgreeter]

Luv "the liar" 9 says: " Hummel-- leading the little lambs to the slaughter. USAirways, record profits."

Ahh, another guy who thinks our pilots are stupid. So they are being led like lambs now? Really? We get it, you don't think our pilots are capable of seeing through any campaign, positive or negative, and making an informed decision. You think you know best, and are afraid how they might vote. Is that it?

Greeter

 

[EastUS1]

I will make a point for ya scab.

......then try and get your pea brain to figure out who were the parties to the Nic arbitration, then make the giant leap and summize how and who would be named in an east pilot class.

"...and who would be named in an east pilot class."...?

Uh Oh! In less than the flash of a lightning-bolt's life...I hear the the solid slap of contact with cruel, cold metal, and the smell of an almost burning leather holster, superheated from a blindingly fast draw!...Hmm...or is it just the now-long-standard smell of yet more vague and rotting threats of even more lawyers...?

 

[nic4us]

You forgot to detail how ALPA sold out those TWA members. This time in an arbitration USAPA will have the upper hand, since it isn't their company that is in bankruptcy.
I'll bet both unions know just how bad arbitrations can turn out, especially since the Nic fiasco is often cited as just what kiind of didaster can result. I expect a big push to settle the SLI before going to arbitration. I also think that each union will submit ONE list, and USAPA's list will be the DOH one (I've never heard of a union submitting more than one list of its members in a merger). There is a HUGE disadvantage to junior APA guys if the Nic were included in this, so in the interest of a MAJORITY of the members of BOTH unions it won't be used, except maybe as a bad example of what could happen.

You are completely clueless if you think usapa will " have the upper hand" in anything.

Further, I suspect that usapa would like to reach an agreement with the APA under MB prior to any arbitration. I also suspect that uscaba may try and rearrange the only accepted system seniority list for the pilots it represents, and try to use some DOH method.

Too bad it won't work that way. Once the MTA is reached, and that is prior to any SLI, whether we vote in favor of the MOU or not, ,,,,,well let's just say " unquestionably ripe DFR".

 

[EastUS1]

,,,,,well let's just say " unquestionably ripe DFR".

Yeah, yeah, sigh!...we know. nic4us previously: "Billions in damages"..."Billions in damages" Good luck with all that pilgrim.

 

[luvthe9]

And fill us in, how does being a Rep get one "off reserve?" Truth be told being a rep is the most under paid job in the union. Very, very little FPL. And here we go again with a red herring seniority issue. We already have had, and still have reps that are Empire (Henriksson and Spike come to mind.) Have they EVER brought up that issue, in any forum? Of course not, but you bring it up to blur the issue, knowing good and well he is more than qualified for the job. Interesting you are already worried about who the new reps might end up being. That's a "tell." A little nervous, perhaps?Greeter

Well Mark I guess you just sit in the office and collect FPL, better than being on call. You should know.

 

[Piedmont1984]

1) I see....it must just be that I can't understand the APA people getting approx 100K for signing, while YOU and the rest of the US folks get 10k in chump change. I'm glad to see that you're completely happy with even just that part though.

2) "They already got our number, and we are screwed no matter how the SLI goes down." Oh well, then you get your west wish of distresses for the evil east, even if such includes you. What's puzzling here is that you can even imagine any possible distress, since your and the west's previous position/fantasy was that the APA would absolutely, in "dire wolf" fear of your mighty little "Army" of leonidas, unquestionably insist on the Nic. What happened with that....?

3) "Want DOH? Sure thing, they got a TWA 1978 ...." Works for me. What's your problem?

East

Don't forget that the 10K is in addition to the two (or was it three) lump sum payments we received every January these past two (or was it three) years. That was the deal we were able to make while in BK. No doubt APA did better. They always have.

 

[Bill Brasky]

You are completely clueless if you think usapa will " have the upper hand" in anything.

Further, I suspect that usapa would like to reach an agreement with the APA under MB prior to any arbitration. I also suspect that uscaba may try and rearrange the only accepted system seniority list for the pilots it represents, and try to use some DOH method.

Too bad it won't work that way. Once the MTA is reached, and that is prior to any SLI, whether we vote in favor of the MOU or not, ,,,,,well let's just say " unquestionably ripe DFR".

You can't possibly believe your own drivel. Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that you will get to cash your "lottery ticket". Sorry dude, lottery is over and ...YOU LOSE!

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Well Mark I guess you just sit in the office and collect FPL, better than being on call. You should know.

More lies. And you know it. For those of you buying all this, let me put in in terms of the CLT reps, the ones currently under recall. I do not want them to be my reps, I abhor their politics. But when it comes to using union FPL Bill McKee has historically taken very little. Like Crimi, he actually likes to fly. DeWitt on the other hand, almost single handedly burned up the CLT FPL bank over the last year. Go to the website guys, all the FPL with names is posted there. Don't believe Luv"the liar" 9. He does not even know how the union works. Again, Reps are the most underpaid, in all bases. It was even that way with ALPA.Greeter

 

[A320 Driver]

More lies. And you know it. For those of you buying all this, let me put in in terms of the CLT reps, the ones currently under recall. I do not want them to be my reps, I abhor their politics. But when it comes to using union FPL Bill McKee has historically taken very little. Like Crimi, he actually likes to fly. DeWitt on the other hand, almost single handedly burned up the CLT FPL bank over the last year. Go to the website guys, all the FPL with names is posted there. Don't believe Luv"the liar" 9. He does not even know how the union works. Again, Reps are the most underpaid, in all bases. It was even that way with ALPA.Greeter

Dewitt needs to get his health under control and try flying again. I am NOT trying to be ugly.

 

[luvthe9]

More lies. And you know it. For those of you buying all this, let me put in in terms of the CLT reps, the ones currently under recall. I do not want them to be my reps, I abhor their politics. But when it comes to using union FPL Bill McKee has historically taken very little. Like Crimi, he actually likes to fly. DeWitt on the other hand, almost single handedly burned up the CLT FPL bank over the last year. Go to the website guys, all the FPL with names is posted there. Don't believe Luv"the liar" 9. He does not even know how the union works. Again, Reps are the most underpaid, in all bases. It was even that way with ALPA.Greeter

Why are you union guys (some former) pushing so hard for this, seems to me that it's bad enough the company is always trying to screw us but it turns out our union leadership does an even better job, Pollock with our pension now Hummel with this POS MOU it's way to vague in so many areas haven't we learned our lesson form LOA93. Another rush job and this dumb group focuses on just an hourly figure.

 

[luvthe9]

Moreover, the profits earned today are not safe. While US Airways appears to be doing very well for the time being, the excess profits being earned because of favorable labor contracts are unlikely to be captured by shareholders. It is standard practice in the airline industry to offer labor groups a large signing bonus when they are working under long-expired contracts. The signing bonus is meant to compensate workers for the raises that they would have otherwise gotten. United Continental's recently ratified pilot contract reportedly included a $400 million lump sum payment, or roughly $40,000 per pilot. US Airways could conceivably have to pay more, as its pilots have been working under expired contracts for a longer period of time. At just $40,000 per pilot, US Airways could see a bill for more than $200 million in a year or two. Moreover, that accounts for just one of several work groups (albeit the highest paid by far).

 

[A320 Driver]

Moreover, the profits earned today are not safe. While US Airways appears to be doing very well for the time being, the excess profits being earned because of favorable labor contracts are unlikely to be captured by shareholders. It is standard practice in the airline industry to offer labor groups a large signing bonus when they are working under long-expired contracts. The signing bonus is meant to compensate workers for the raises that they would have otherwise gotten. United Continental's recently ratified pilot contract reportedly included a $400 million lump sum payment, or roughly $40,000 per pilot. US Airways could conceivably have to pay more, as its pilots have been working under expired contracts for a longer period of time. At just $40,000 per pilot, US Airways could see a bill for more than $200 million in a year or two. Moreover, that accounts for just one of several work groups (albeit the highest paid by far).

There is a point here...there just has to be. Simple question...did you take the time to go to one of the presentations or not?

 

[luvthe9]

Someone else's opinion....................To all USAirways pilots with an open mind,

I just received my glossy sales brochure from USAPA in the mail. Anxiously I sat down and read it cover to cover 3 times. I thought that I would be seeing a very factual no-nonsense synopsis of the good and the bad in the MOU. I was certain that my new union, unlike ALPA, would have enough faith in its pilots to give me the straight scoop. The funny thing is though that I found nothing bad listed in the sales brochure; and make no mistake, this expensive production is a sales brochure.


Now having worked for this group of managers for 7 years, I couldn’t imagine that somehow they had gone through an epiphany and seen the light. Could it all be good? But where was the retroactive pay and profit sharing? How about the change of control and LPP provisions? Am I going to get a part of the company and a say in the way it is run like the American pilots? What about the NIC, minimum aircraft, block hours and other protections? Am I to make a leap of faith and trust the people who have fought me tooth and nail for seven years? Should I trust the same people who seem to misinterpret every line in an agreement and fight to keep me from getting even an insignificant 3% raise?


I decided to re-read the actual MOU and make some notes. Shouldn’t the MOU and glossy brochure have some sort of commonality? Well, I found that USAPA’s sales brochure was all about emphasizing the new pay rates and silent about any give-backs. Why? Should I need to go to a road show to have explained what should be clear? One thing I’ve learned having a bunch of lawyers in the family is that if you want an iron-clad document, you put it in straight forward English. If on the other hand you want to be able to obfuscate an issue, then you want to use a lot of legalese, references to other documents and confusing language. That describes the MOU!


Below I’ve outlined some of my concerns from the actual MOU which are unaddressed in the sales brochure:


Paragraph 3 says, “The eligibility of US Airways pilots for a defined contribution plan accrual shall commence on the Effective Date, and US Airways’ contribution to the retirement plan beginning on the Effective Date shall be calculated by multiplying an eligible pilot’s eligible compensation under the applicable retirement plan by the percentage contribution made by New American Airlines to its pilots’ defined contribution retirement plan.”
USAPA says this means 14% increasing to 16% on 1/1/14 in their sales brochure, but if that is true, why not just say it here? It’s simple enough, isn’t it? What’s the point of the excessive language? More obfuscation?


Paragraph 4 says, “The Parties further understand, however, that it will take some period of time for those terms to be implemented…The Parties agree that each term of the MTA shall be applicable to all US Airways pilots at the earliest practicable time for each such term…”


This paragraph seems to give the company a tremendous amount of latitude without penalty in implementing all the great things USAPA is promising in their color brochure. What does “some period of time” mean? Indefinite dates and times are the centerpiece of delay tactics.


In Paragraph 8, we read, “The protections in this Paragraph begin on the Effective Date and last until the earlier of eighteen (18) months after US Airways and the New American Airlines obtain a single operating certificate, or the date on which a JCBA and integrated seniority list are in effect. “


This, to me, is one of the most important paragraphs in the MOU. These are important protections that seem to last only 18 months! They include minimum block hours, type aircraft, shuttle flying, base closures, furlough and much more. Why is this 18 months not mentioned in the glossy brochure? What good are protections that last 18 months and why would USAPA sign on to such a thing?


Further down at the end of 8e we find, “The standard to be applied by the arbitrator will be the fair and equitable allocation of flying between the two pilot groups giving due consideration to the airline business plans.”


What business plans? Does it include me? Why are my protections based on their business plans? Wow, who do you think the arbitrator will side with when that language is in there?! Do you want to finish your career flying a 190? Not me!


In Paragraph 9 we find “Nothing herein shall prevent placement of the "US" code on flights operated by American or New American Airlines (or by any other airline when displaying the "AA" code)…


What is the purpose of this line? Can you say alter-ego?


Paragraph 10 deals with seniority and McCaskill-Bond but the language leaves seniority totally open-ended. What is the starting point for the submitted USAir seniority list? One list or two? And if one, what is it? Where’s the Nic? Why did the West support this paragraph? Why has USAPA been silent on this issue?


In Paragraph 10b, the company has put some conditions on the final seniority of which, “it does not contain conditions and restrictions that materially increase costs associated with training or company paid move as specified in the JCBA” is the most onerous. Why does my seniority depend on whether it increases costs for the company? The company promises to remain neutral except, “such neutrality shall not prevent said carriers from insuring that the award complies with the criteria in Paragraph 10(B)(i)-(v),” which of course includes the previous dangerous quote [10(b)(v)]. Do you trust these guys to look out for your best interests concerning seniority?


Paragraph 11 is basically a “no furlough” clause with one important exception; it is subject to paragraph 21. Paragraph 21 outlines the specific circumstances (but not limited to only these) that allow the company to furlough. One of these, (5) grounding of a substantial number of the company’s aircraft is particularly vague because it does not give a reason for the grounding. Why not put “FAA or manufacturer” grounding in the language unless one intends to keep all doors open?


Paragraph 12, which deals with involuntary displacements and pay protections, says that a pilot may have to move to a new base if need be to keep his pay. There is also a limit placed on this protection in Paragraph (24)(d) of $12 million a year which incidentally is subtracted from the $87 million in (24)(a). More on the $87 million in a minute.


Paragraph 14 contains purposefully the most simply worded language in the document. In this paragraph the company wants to make sure that there is no doubt what we have given up:


14. USAPA agrees to waive all change of control provisions, including, but not limited to, Section 1.D in the East collective bargaining agreement, LPPs, daily minimum utilization, and minimum fleet requirements in the East and West collective bargaining agreements and in the Transition Agreement conditioned upon the occurrence of the Effective Date.


Why is there no mention of this important concession in our shiny brochure? Without these protections, we have finally given up our last “sacred cow.” We subject ourselves to the whims of management! Do you really trust these guys after all they have done?


In the convoluted language of Paragraph 18, one thing clearly sticks out; “USAPA will inform the Parties whether its Board of Pilot Representatives has agreed to recommend that its membership ratify the MTA on or before January 4, 2013”


Am I to believe that after all the months of negotiations and secrecy, suddenly the Board is put under a time constraint? This is straight from Management 101; put your adversary under a phony time constraint and make them feel that if they don’t do what you want, all kinds of bad things are going to happen. Really, Charlie Brown? USAPA leadership let Lucy pull the football away again? Have those guys learned anything or do some of our Board members feel they are doing Doug’s business?


Paragraph 23 contains some jumbled-up language concerning vacation. Different documents and percentages are referred to. Wouldn’t it have been simpler and more concise just to actually put the vacation days in writing right here and now. The glossy sales brochure does not address vacation time at all. Why?


Paragraph 25 deals with the controversial $87 million of future modifications to the CBA. Nowhere in this paragraph will you find USAPA or the USAirways pilots mentioned. I also could find no mention of it in the sales brochure. Yet I know that there has been correspondence from certain USAPA reps touting the benefits to USAirways of this provision. The language permits APA alone sole discretion with this money. Do you really think USAirways pilots will see any of it?


I am not professing to be an expert but I do consider myself of at least average intelligence. As sure as I can see loopholes and confusing language in this document, I’m sure that an 84 year old arbitrator with partial Alzheimer’s disease is going to misinterpret something in it. I’m betting that is by design.


Look, I want and deserve a raise as much as anyone else but I do not want to end my career on a 190! I feel that for whatever reason many of our USAPA officers and representatives, in a very ALPA-like fashion, have determined that they are now Parker’s business partners. I feel that USAPA lost all their credibility when they put out a sales brochure emphasizing positives only and not once mentioning one down-side to this MOU. USAPA lost further credibility when they voted to keep the Board debate secret even after the non-disclosure agreement was lifted. One does not have to be a cynic to wonder “what is the big secret?”


Look, I am not ready to take a leap of faith hoping that Doug Parker is going to catch me. Parker has used every opportunity to take advantage of us and I don’t think that leopard has changed its spots. There are too many gray areas in this MOU, despite what some in the USAPA leadership have told us. I feel this MOU just doesn’t pass the smell test. I also feel that without any significant retro-pay, protections, company stock and other guarantees, this MOU does not meet my minimum criteria. I also know that money will be given up at the first down-turn of the company. Then where will we be? I will be voting no on this MOU, there is better out there.

 

[A320 Driver]

Why are you union guys (some former) pushing so hard for this, seems to me that it's bad enough the company is always trying to screw us but it turns out our union leadership does an even better job, Pollock with our pension now Hummel with this POS MOU it's way to vague in so many areas haven't we learned our lesson form LOA93. Another rush job and this dumb group focuses on just an hourly figure.

There is so much more to this agreement than just an hourly figure. Here's what you sound like: "any negatives in this MOU are REAL. Any positives in this MOU are LIES". I see a pattern here. You Sir have a serious problem. What other Boogey Men are you running from??

 

[A320 Driver]

There is a point here...there just has to be. Simple question...did you take the time to go to one of the presentations or not?

Well, did you??