Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nycbusdriver]

CoC book rates were never meant to be a permanent wage structure.

Well, the CoC doesn't really specify the rates, but specifies that the rates go to "Book Rates." By definition, the Book Rates are exactly meant to be the permanent wage structure. The "Book" is the contract, and the "Book Rates" ar those specified by the contract.

I will grant that those rates were negotiated in a very different economic and operating environment, and they might not work long-term now. But, going to those Book Rates, or even the possibility, would certainly give the company incentive to bargain realistically. (We don't even get parity with AA pilots in several areas for quite a while, and the $10k "signing bonus" is a insult when compared to what the "bankruptcy" pilots are getting.) For some reason, the US pilots seem to be getting treated as the pilots working for the bankrupt carrier here. We are not, and we need to get out of that mindset RIGHT NOW!

The MOU gives up a lot for very little. It gives away the last protections we as a group had. Meanwhile, the AA pilots get rewarded. We are paying for their retirement, and getting crap in return.

Vote NO!

 

[EastUS1]

For some reason, the US pilots seem to be getting treated as the pilots working for the bankrupt carrier here. We are not, and we need to get out of that mindset RIGHT NOW!

The MOU gives up a lot for very little. It gives away the last protections we as a group had. Meanwhile, the AA pilots get rewarded. We are paying for their retirement, and getting crap in return.

Vote NO!

Fully agreed with here sir, well..except your observation that: "the US pilots seem to be getting treated as the pilots working for the bankrupt carrier here." There's no "seem to be" involved here. The US pilots ARE without any possible doubt being treated, thus far at least, as completely second-class citizens in this.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Jeeze,

While at an USAPA office road show in CLT Dave Ciabattoni, Grievance Chairman, weighed in on the status of the 3% raise. It seems arbitrator Kasher is taking medicaiton that messes with his short term memory. Kasher admitted this in executive session.

So we have an arbitrator who can't remember what is what and he has forgotten what the difference between the 3% and and the LOA 93 grievance is.

I realy want to trust the rest of my career to that type of system where an old man with a bad memory takes forever to decide what to do. Do you all remember the large RJ grievance, and LOA 93?

If Kasher had any sense at all left, he would resign from this case and let it go to another arbitrator. (I'm told he kept meticulous notes, but I don't know if that would matter.) An admission of mental impairment, and we're still putting up with this guy? What gives?

Did you know that Change of Control, does not apply to E-190 pilots, or to West pilots? They get nothing from change of control.

I don't want to put my future in the hands of an old man with memory loss and I am not interested in hurting E-190 pilots or even West pilots for that matter. Isn't that what a union is all about?

It's true that the E190 pilots will get left out of any CoC issues. But the MOU enshrines their second-class status for ten years. If we vote the MOU down, maybe our CoC language will provide the clout to improve that. Why can't we get a better deal than the AA pilots and let them ride OUR tailcoats.

Since the west and east are considered one carrier in the merger, any leverage the CoC provides will be leverage for the west, too. CoC will never see the light of day, but it will certainly force the company to "get real" here for the benefit of all the pilots.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Sounds good. West starts it's relative position 1 number below the most junior wide body Captain.

Probably right, if it goes to arbitration.

 

[Claxon]

Name a west army of lyingitas suit in the last 8 years that you received damages from? Name a army of lyingitas suit that made it through the legal system successfully

Please ask the same of the East pilots. I can save you time, read The Honorable Judge Siver judement.

"Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. This judgment is binding on the
following class: “All pilots employed by US Airways in September 2008 who were on the
America West seniority list on September 20, 2005.”
DATED this 4th day of December, 2012."

If you do not understand legitimate LUP, sue, you will find out the results years from now.

You will have to earn your seniority with seniority, what a concept.

west pilots, reply to above post to make your point. Now is your chance.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Does that mean that the east would start your number 1 position below ALL AA WB pilots?

Of course not. Apples and oranges. Do you have any living brain matter left?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Well, the CoC doesn't really specify the rates, but specifies that the rates go to "Book Rates." By definition, the Book Rates are exactly meant to be the permanent wage structure. The "Book" is the contract, and the "Book Rates" ar those specified by the contract.

I will grant that those rates were negotiated in a very different economic and operating environment, and they might not work long-term now. But, going to those Book Rates, or even the possibility, would certainly give the company incentive to bargain realistically. (We don't even get parity with AA pilots in several areas for quite a while, and the $10k "signing bonus" is a insult when compared to what the "bankruptcy" pilots are getting.) For some reason, the US pilots seem to be getting treated as the pilots working for the bankrupt carrier here. We are not, and we need to get out of that mindset RIGHT NOW!

The MOU gives up a lot for very little. It gives away the last protections we as a group had. Meanwhile, the AA pilots get rewarded. We are paying for their retirement, and getting crap in return.

Vote NO!

So you have a problem with the AA pilots getting rewarded, and that you are getting "crap" in return? But you have no problem dragging along the West and our 190 guys and gals for a couple of years, in the hopes YOU can get a raise they will see no part of (until the Company gets "incentive" to reward them also??) Is that it?Look, please vote no if it serves you and your family best. Nobody is going to change your mind. But don't tell me you are concerned about "our" guys getting their just rewards, because taking the grievance and attempted injunction route has no pot of gold for them at the end of the rainbow.If we all vote based on what we deserve, and are owed, this thing will crash and burn. But logical minds and realist will say time to move on. 80%+ approval of this MOU, even higher if they don't only get their news here on this forum.Greeter

 

[Claxon]

Does any one know the date of hire of america west pilots
Eric Ferguson and Jeff Koontz ? They are the leaders of the america west pilots.

Inquiring people want to know.

 

[EastUS1]

Of course not. Apples and oranges. Do you have any living brain matter left?

I respectfully must submit that your question is logically invalid. In the same fashion that such inquiries as: Have you stopped beating your wife? presume, without foundation, a previous behavior or condition...well...your asking if any "living brain matter" is "left" is equally illogical by first assuming the prior existence of such.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

All they will be is Hummels puppets, they have zero experience. McGuik just wants to try to get his Empire DOH, guess he does not like being on reserve.

And fill us in, how does being a Rep get one "off reserve?" Truth be told being a rep is the most under paid job in the union. Very, very little FPL. And here we go again with a red herring seniority issue. We already have had, and still have reps that are Empire (Henriksson and Spike come to mind.) Have they EVER brought up that issue, in any forum? Of course not, but you bring it up to blur the issue, knowing good and well he is more than qualified for the job. Interesting you are already worried about who the new reps might end up being. That's a "tell." A little nervous, perhaps?Greeter

 

[Claxon]

http://www.fergusonforpresident.com/blog/?p=143

 

[nic4us]

For some reason, the US pilots seem to be getting treated as the pilots working for the bankrupt carrier here. We are not, and we need to get out of that mindset RIGHT NOW!

The MOU gives up a lot for very little. It gives away the last protections we as a group had. Meanwhile, the AA pilots get rewarded. We are paying for their retirement, and getting crap in return.

Vote NO!

You are not being treated as pilots working for the bankrupt carrier.

You are being treated as the pilots who have the bankrupt union, devoid of any sense of the obligations of a CBA, and little more than a bunch of scab willing to undercut your co-workers to try and steal their jobs!

Congratulations it has worked sooo well for you!


Coming next is the treatment we are all going to get from the APA. They already got our number, and we are screwed no matter how the SLI goes down.

Want DOH? Sure thing, they got a TWA 1978 hire number 6000 on their list and will gladly let us start using our DOHs right behind him.

Want relative position and status, well since we are the lower paid having less status, and ensured by the idiots who voted in uscaba, I am sure they will be agreeable to that also.

 

[EastUS1]

You are not being treated as pilots working for the bankrupt carrier.

Coming next is the treatment we are all going to get from the APA. They already got our number, and we are screwed no matter how the SLI goes down.

Want DOH? Sure thing, they got a TWA 1978 hire number 6000 on their list and will gladly let us start using our DOHs right behind him.

1) I see....it must just be that I can't understand the APA people getting approx 100K for signing, while YOU and the rest of the US folks get 10k in chump change. I'm glad to see that you're completely happy with even just that part though.

2) "They already got our number, and we are screwed no matter how the SLI goes down." Oh well, then you get your west wish of distresses for the evil east, even if such includes you. What's puzzling here is that you can even imagine any possible distress, since your and the west's previous position/fantasy was that the APA would absolutely, in "dire wolf" fear of your mighty little "Army" of leonidas, unquestionably insist on the Nic. What happened with that....?

3) "Want DOH? Sure thing, they got a TWA 1978 ...." Works for me. What's your problem?

 

[Bill Brasky]

You are not being treated as pilots working for the bankrupt carrier.

You are being treated as the pilots who have the bankrupt union, devoid of any sense of the obligations of a CBA, and little more than a bunch of scab willing to undercut your co-workers to try and steal their jobs!

Congratulations it has worked sooo well for you!


Coming next is the treatment we are all going to get from the APA. They already got our number, and we are screwed no matter how the SLI goes down.

Want DOH? Sure thing, they got a TWA 1978 hire number 6000 on their list and will gladly let us start using our DOHs right behind him.

Want relative position and status, well since we are the lower paid having less status, and ensured by the idiots who voted in uscaba, I am sure they will be agreeable to that also.

You forgot to detail how ALPA sold out those TWA members. This time in an arbitration USAPA will have the upper hand, since it isn't their company that is in bankruptcy.
I'll bet both unions know just how bad arbitrations can turn out, especially since the Nic fiasco is often cited as just what kiind of didaster can result. I expect a big push to settle the SLI before going to arbitration. I also think that each union will submit ONE list, and USAPA's list will be the DOH one (I've never heard of a union submitting more than one list of its members in a merger). There is a HUGE disadvantage to junior APA guys if the Nic were included in this, so in the interest of a MAJORITY of the members of BOTH unions it won't be used, except maybe as a bad example of what could happen.

 

[nic4us]

west pilots, reply to above post to make your point. Now is your chance.

I will make a point for ya scab.

Take a real close look at how Judge Silver describes the West pilot class, then try and get your pea brain to figure out who were the parties to the Nic arbitration, then make the giant leap and summize how and who would be named in an east pilot class.