Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

A LUP. To further the pilots career in terms of pay work rules and security.

By agreeing to a mou which states the ta will be void. And a three way agreement for seniority willbe agreed upon via m/b. Let the west sue

Intentionally acting to be sued is not an LUP. It is not in the best interest of the union or the pilots.

Ignoring arbitration results is not an LUP.

Delaying integration is not an LUP.

Throwing in extraneous items into another arbitration is not an LUP. Two lists, one arbitration.

Useless you believe Roland Wilder. That the larger benefit gained by one pilot group will be offset by seniority.

Most of the APA, then comes west pilots followed behind by east pilots. That might be your 3 way list. But it sure is not going to be DOH.

 

[dca319]

Not having any JD after my name...well...that much does seem evident.

No, it doesn't seem evident. Pure speculation on our part and we have no legal muscle when the SLI happens. Between Silver's warning about straying from the Nic to their ripeness ruling, we have nothing. If anyone will have to sue, it'll be us.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

He's a supposed "Leader"/President/etc. If his personal convictions, if ANY, can't be convincingly expressed, succesfully promoted and acted upon?...Well then..the guy's just a pathetic little joke...and should find "work" elsewhere than in his current position...Period!

Let me see. Check Airman fired because he stood up for our pilots. Takes over as Training Chairman for the union. Elected as an Officer to EVP to replace a "quitter." Elected to the President kicking McKee to the curb.And then we have you, a web board warrior, telling us all how you think things should work out? Really?Make sure you make your ONE vote count (if you are even a member) on the MOU. It's the only say you have. And I can assure you it will pass by over 80% of those voting. Greeter

 

[EastUS1]

Ah!..So you're entirely supportive of the "bulletproof/accidents-couldn't-ever-even-conceivably-happen-to-MEEE!, AWA "Aces" infantile fantasies? Sigh! See the previously suggested "stray dogs" reference...umm..."Sir"?...Or did you ever even "serve" in so much as the Girl Scouts?..Even the Brownies perhaps? No?..Didn't much think so, as you're not seemingly the type for even that level of harsh "military" experience. I'd gently suggest leaving off the Colonel "salutation" here, as if you had even the slightest respect for any of your coworkers, or apparently anyone's service little princess. Any 18 year young Private on the Line I've full respect for and proudly salute in these times. You, on the other hand, are a complete and pathetic little "joke"....umm..."sir"

Option #2? = GROW UP. It's never too late for even such as yourself to at least consider doing so.

Oops!...Negative votes for even that?...Sigh!...Must've offended some awesome AWA "spartans" or perhaps even "knights" who've "Fought with valor in many battles" in "war", said "war" purely in Fantasyland, of course. Aww...Heck!...Maybe even a few dreaded "dire wolves" here as well! Sigh!..."Sorry"....My bad.

Option #2? = GROW UP. It's never too late for even such as many of yourselves to at least consider doing so. Consder the benefits alone = No one need then properly and uncontrollably laugh at you.

All of you "Army" of leonidas..umm.."heroic" types...well: "Any 18 year young Private on the Line I've full respect for and proudly salute in these times." While you pathetic little AOL/AWA punks, I mean "heros", "spartans", "dire wolves", "Larry Potters" /etc/whatever your childish little fantasies currently are, and will always remain, nothing more than just pathetic little punks.

Enjoy your INCREDIBLY infantile, unimaginably arrogant and pathetically petty, little narcicisstic fantasies...and, within the context of my entire 6 decades of life, previously inconceivable stupidity, little AWA "heros". There of course, exists no larger world than your pathetic little " heroic spartan" selves, especially all of you who've "fought with valor in may battles" in supposed "war" : http://news.yahoo.co...-215054467.html

How ANY of your bunch isn't properly and utterly ashamed of your group's infantile BS must, I suppose, always remain a complete mystery.....Have/do ANY of you mighty AWA "spartans" even now, or have ever had a child of yours in the combat theater?

 

[cleardirect]

It's inadequate in so many ways, I would think a great deal of westies would think so to, even less in it for them.

Usapa had it set up that the west was never going to get anything in a new contract.

How noble of you to show concern now for the westies not getting anything.

 

[mrbreeze]

Ok, boys and girls......take a step back and breath a deep breath.

From what I was told by a rep is that the MOU does not even address any kind of SLI, which was put on the back burner by all parties involved with developing the MOU.

So, you guys can argue till the cows come home, but the bottom line is that AFTER the merger is announced, and the MOU is put in place, then the real war about SLI begins.

So at this point in the timeline, any argument about SLI is just your own opinion....that's all.

Try not to beat yourselves up too badly until we get to the real meat of the issue. That "meat" will probably be out of our hands anyway with M/B being in control.

Just enjoy the ride.

breeze

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Ok. Let us all know how "Gary" has any control over assessments or the ability of the 11 man BPR to do whatever they want? . That is why we now have the first ever USAPA recall ( of all THREE!) in CLT. Bad quality reps. Bad decisions coming if we leave them in.I want the litigation stopped, and all funds to go the to the government affairs committee. I don't even have a vote on the BPR, and only have one vote if polled.Greeter

By the way, the pension litigation is a waste of time. We GAVE it away, because of poor choices on the quality of our reps "EXACTLY" EVERTHING TO GAIN, nothing to lose, problem for DUI moving forward, The real question , GIVE IT AWAY GARY WANTS IT STOPPED, is he the next VP of flt ops?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

By the way, the pension litigation is a waste of time. We GAVE it away, because of poor choices on the quality of our reps "EXACTLY" EVERTHING TO GAIN, nothing to lose, problem for DUI moving forward, The real question , GIVE IT AWAY GARY WANTS IT STOPPED, is he the next VP of flt ops?

Wait just a minute. I was promised VP of flight ops! Did Give it away Gary just C...block me? Take care Mutatis. Greeter

 

[EastUS1]

How noble of you to show concern now for the westies not getting anything.

The entire "rest of the world" must, most certainly, be about to errupt into righteous indignation at any moment!!! WHAT!!??..The Chosen People of The Lord, the AWA "pilots" aren't being appropriately cared for as the center of the entire universe and all of creation!....Such an abomination can't ever be!

 

[EastUS1]

Wait just a minute. I was promised VP of flight ops!

No fair Greeter!...I was only offered Minister of Defence! Seriously though = "Interesting Times" indeed....we'll all have to wait and see how it all plays out.

 

[EastUS1]

Make sure you make your ONE vote count

That's all any of us can do....any and all BS to the contrary...unless, of course; you personally posess more than "your ONE" measly and, thusly; apparently insignificant little vote yourself Greeter. Those holding any grandiose notions to the contrary concern me somewhat: " And I can assure you it will pass by over 80% of those voting." If so, then so be it. I'd then hope that such proves to be a good thing for all concerned.

 

[EastUS1]

How noble of you to show concern now for the westies not getting anything.

Sigh!...Well..be "tough" then and demand that you get what you want! Just threaten everyone with even a few of your "knights", perhaps all of your "spartans" and don't forget your "dire wolves". If all that doesn't work, well...try filling your diapers and immediately start crying/screaming for attention from Mommy!...or your first-name-basis, umm.."friend Doug"...or perhaps the nearest arbitrator or court. Best of luck in whatever "intelligent" choice you make there. A noteworthy caveat though = Most have already heard far, far more than their fair share of your never-ending, infantile whining already. Do give my best to all of your fellow "spartans", "knights", "dire wolves" and otherwise, hopelessly infantile little "heros". On a not-funny note; should any of you precious little westie "spartans", "heros", "knights" and not to forget "dire wolves" of course, care to ever even , if just for a second, extract your heads from your arses, and, however briefly, actually take a look around:

http://www.cnn.com/S...ties/index.html

Now?..Nevermind, I suppose....Back to your pathetic and seemingly incurable, infantile fantasies...mighty "spartans"/"knights" etc, ad absurdum, ad nauseum...Should any of you ever seek even the very first and even slightest measure of any "respect"?...Explain the following "heroically" T-shirted little fruit bat's presentation, just for starters....?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Anyway....about those widebody slots....

 

[flyer63]

Now that the MOU has been released, the complete story of what happened in that meeting can be told.

First, let me remind you of how we got this MOU. The company objected to Paul DiOrio being on the NAC because Paul was demanding a contract that was industry standard. Parker and Kirby knew that if they were going to get the NAC to accept anything less, DiOrio had to go. Also, if Hummel was going to negotiate in secret with the company, both he and the company did not want DiOrio around to make demands that we be treated the same as other airlines pilots.

Hummel removed DiOrio and appointed a new NAC Chairman. Then he took over negotiations along with the new handpicked NAC Chairman in secret and brought the MOU to the Board for approval. This was never how the founders of USAPA intended this. The elected members of the BPR were supposed to give guidance to the NAC, not the other way around and the President was not supposed to be involved. Unfortunately, our founders were either part of the secret or kept out of the loop not knowing what was happening.

So now the original MOU that Gary Hummel and the NAC negotiated in secret was brought to the BPR for a vote to send it out with a recommendation by the BPR to approve it. But the BPR looked at this MOU and realized that it was a disaster with the US Airways pilots getting nothing but vague promises, low wages and a "second class status" and we all know how those promises turn out here.

So, they voted 10 to 1, with 1 west Rep abstaining to send it out to the pilots for a vote. Then they voted unanimously to recommend to the pilots that they vote to reject the MOU.

The company immediately understood that after the F/A's rejected their contract, they were about to see the same thing happen with the pilots. They were certainly aware of the charges in the press and elsewhere that they have been unable to complete the merger with the airline they already operate and so why would an investor put his faith in them for a even bigger merger?

So, rather than be humiliated with a unanimous "no" vote, they pulled the MOU and then signed a NDA so that no one could talk about it or negotiate it.

So now we get to the part that no one could make up. A recall petition was circulated demanding that the 3 CLT Reps vote to send the MOU out with a recommendation to vote for the MOU or be recalled. Who were these people?

1. The very people that have fought against USAPA and for keeping ALPA.
2. That have attempted time and time again to undermine USAPA.
3. That have worked in association with the West Pilots to force Nicolau on us and to continue to ferment problems between the two sides to eliminate the obstacle to a new contract.
4. That refused to join USAPA until fairly recently.
5. That were running our Pensions at ALPA when we lost them.
6. That were the most senior Check Airmen that would throw the rest of us under a bus just to get a contract.

These are the men that circulated a petition to recall 3 of the 11 reps that voted to send this MOU out but with a recommendation to vote "no" for this obviously substandard MOU.

The Unsecured Creditors Meeting was about to begin to debate what will happen to American Airlines. Will the Unsecured Creditors support the AMR Management that by all accounts have done a credible job in reorganizing American while under bankruptcy protection? Or will they support US Airways Management that is still mismanaging their employees from the last merger?

So, the same MOU is once again trotted out and once again the USAPA leadership, the USAPA advisors and the USAPA attorneys along with representatives from the company tell the BPR, this is the best you will get and if you vote "no," we will just continue the merger without your input.
'However, we really need you to vote for this MOU and we need you to vote unanimously for it so we can show the Unsecured Creditors that we have your full support.'

So Gary Hummel, the NAC, the advisors and the attorneys all started to explain why the BPR needed to vote for the MOU as is. They worked the room explaining the company position, giving the company line and 'channeling' Parker and Kirby. 'Vote for this or else, but by the way, the company needs our help!'

As one by one some of the reps began to speak in favor of voting to send this MOU out with a "yes" vote, Steve Crimi, Bill McKee, Dwight Ingram, Spike, and Mike Gillies realized that they had some leverage here and told Hummel, the NAC and the Advisors, the BPR and the company that unless they gave us a better deal, they would vote to recommend that the pilots vote "No" for this MOU. The debate was extremely heated. But these 5 reps fought against formidable odds. However, in the words of one of them, "They wanted something from us and we asked for something in return." That's how negotiations work.

That something was the retroactive pay and benefits beginning on February 8, 2013. In other words, if this merger goes through as planned and it goes through later this year, our pay increases will be retroactive to February 8, 2013. Every expert expects this merger to be approved and almost everyone expects it will be some time late this year or early next year, but we pilots will get a lump sum of our new salaries that are retroactive to February 8th 2013.

Do the math. That potentially could mean nearly $50,000 or more for a Group 2 Captain. That is what these 5 reps demanded for their "yes" vote and this is what the company agreed to. This is also what the recall is trying to stop.

The story I have just given you is a rough idea of what happened. I was not there to witness it. I was able to compile what happened by talking to numerous people involved in those meetings. However, everyone I talked to agreed that these 5 Reps, starting with Steve Crimi forced the company to negotiate a much better deal than they tried to force on us with the help of our leadership and our advisors.

The BPR Reps that were afraid to fight for us and had changed their minds to send out the substandard MOU with a "yes" recommendation were PHL Rep Jamie Weidner. DCA Reps Joe Stein and Pete Dugstad and the 3 PHX Reps. In other words, the usual suspects. Gary Hummel did his very best to bring us the original MOU without the retro pay along with others in USAPA leadership.

The leaders of this recall movement are lifetime members of the Chip Munn fan club and in fact Chip Munn is one of the leaders of this movement. Richard Alter is another along with Manny Lopez and Tim McGirk among others that I hope to expose in the near future. They are working hand in glove with Rob Streble to have those Reps removed as quickly as possible. Once that takes place, they hope to elect their own people that will work closely with the DCA Reps, Jamie Weidner and the PHX Reps. That has been their dream since the end of ALPA. Control the union again - work to bring the Nicolau Award to the property because "it's binding" and give the company what it needs. The "give-a-way-crowd" as they were once and forever known

After this is over, a recall of Rob Streble needs to take place. We need to have integrity once again in the Secretary-Treasurer position.

I have a demand from these recall voters. If this merger goes through and we get our retroactive pay, that you not take it since you are so willing to remove the people that brought it to you. Allow us to divide it among the pilots that vote to keep those 3 Reps in office because we will deserve it. Otherwise, you are nothing but Hypocrites!

There is a great deal more real work to come. If this merger takes place, we will need a strong leader at the table along with the APA and whatever management takes over for a final, fair and binding contract. We need the right people that will argue our seniority if arbitration is necessary to ensure a fair outcome of the seniority issue.

To make sure we have the right people there to oversee this, we need to make sure the 3 CLT Reps remain in office and make sure that Jamie Weidner never gets re-elected. I gave up on the DCA Reps years ago. They might as well be living in PHX.

If you have a friend in CLT and most of us do, please get in touch with them. Talk to him or her. Send this email and others like it. Let them know who is behind this recall movement and why. Make sure they understand what happened in those meetings, who got us the better MOU and how important it is to have people in there that are willing to fight for what they believe in and for us.

Also, if you can, please attend the NAC road shows. If you still have doubts as to what happened as I related them, by all means ask the NAC yourself. Nothing like watching them squirm...

And if you have a few extra dollars (and who does) please send it to the CLT Reps so they can get their story out there to defend themselves against this unbelievably stupid recall. Rob Streble is blocking their attempts to defend themselves.

NEXT ON DECK THE PENSION INVESTGATION, A HUGE PROBLEM FOR "GIVE IT AWAY GARY" Especially after the last court showdown! THANK A CLT REP! AND PHL minus jamie!

Now that the MOU has been released, the complete story of what happened in that meeting can be told.

First, let me remind you of how we got this MOU. The company objected to Paul DiOrio being on the NAC because Paul was demanding a contract that was industry standard. Parker and Kirby knew that if they were going to get the NAC to accept anything less, DiOrio had to go. Also, if Hummel was going to negotiate in secret with the company, both he and the company did not want DiOrio around to make demands that we be treated the same as other airlines pilots.

Hummel removed DiOrio and appointed a new NAC Chairman. Then he took over negotiations along with the new handpicked NAC Chairman in secret and brought the MOU to the Board for approval. This was never how the founders of USAPA intended this. The elected members of the BPR were supposed to give guidance to the NAC, not the other way around and the President was not supposed to be involved. Unfortunately, our founders were either part of the secret or kept out of the loop not knowing what was happening.

So now the original MOU that Gary Hummel and the NAC negotiated in secret was brought to the BPR for a vote to send it out with a recommendation by the BPR to approve it. But the BPR looked at this MOU and realized that it was a disaster with the US Airways pilots getting nothing but vague promises, low wages and a "second class status" and we all know how those promises turn out here.

So, they voted 10 to 1, with 1 west Rep abstaining to send it out to the pilots for a vote. Then they voted unanimously to recommend to the pilots that they vote to reject the MOU.

The company immediately understood that after the F/A's rejected their contract, they were about to see the same thing happen with the pilots. They were certainly aware of the charges in the press and elsewhere that they have been unable to complete the merger with the airline they already operate and so why would an investor put his faith in them for a even bigger merger?

So, rather than be humiliated with a unanimous "no" vote, they pulled the MOU and then signed a NDA so that no one could talk about it or negotiate it.

So now we get to the part that no one could make up. A recall petition was circulated demanding that the 3 CLT Reps vote to send the MOU out with a recommendation to vote for the MOU or be recalled. Who were these people?

1. The very people that have fought against USAPA and for keeping ALPA.
2. That have attempted time and time again to undermine USAPA.
3. That have worked in association with the West Pilots to force Nicolau on us and to continue to ferment problems between the two sides to eliminate the obstacle to a new contract.
4. That refused to join USAPA until fairly recently.
5. That were running our Pensions at ALPA when we lost them.
6. That were the most senior Check Airmen that would throw the rest of us under a bus just to get a contract.

These are the men that circulated a petition to recall 3 of the 11 reps that voted to send this MOU out but with a recommendation to vote "no" for this obviously substandard MOU.

The Unsecured Creditors Meeting was about to begin to debate what will happen to American Airlines. Will the Unsecured Creditors support the AMR Management that by all accounts have done a credible job in reorganizing American while under bankruptcy protection? Or will they support US Airways Management that is still mismanaging their employees from the last merger?

So, the same MOU is once again trotted out and once again the USAPA leadership, the USAPA advisors and the USAPA attorneys along with representatives from the company tell the BPR, this is the best you will get and if you vote "no," we will just continue the merger without your input.
'However, we really need you to vote for this MOU and we need you to vote unanimously for it so we can show the Unsecured Creditors that we have your full support.'

So Gary Hummel, the NAC, the advisors and the attorneys all started to explain why the BPR needed to vote for the MOU as is. They worked the room explaining the company position, giving the company line and 'channeling' Parker and Kirby. 'Vote for this or else, but by the way, the company needs our help!'

As one by one some of the reps began to speak in favor of voting to send this MOU out with a "yes" vote, Steve Crimi, Bill McKee, Dwight Ingram, Spike, and Mike Gillies realized that they had some leverage here and told Hummel, the NAC and the Advisors, the BPR and the company that unless they gave us a better deal, they would vote to recommend that the pilots vote "No" for this MOU. The debate was extremely heated. But these 5 reps fought against formidable odds. However, in the words of one of them, "They wanted something from us and we asked for something in return." That's how negotiations work.

That something was the retroactive pay and benefits beginning on February 8, 2013. In other words, if this merger goes through as planned and it goes through later this year, our pay increases will be retroactive to February 8, 2013. Every expert expects this merger to be approved and almost everyone expects it will be some time late this year or early next year, but we pilots will get a lump sum of our new salaries that are retroactive to February 8th 2013.

Do the math. That potentially could mean nearly $50,000 or more for a Group 2 Captain. That is what these 5 reps demanded for their "yes" vote and this is what the company agreed to. This is also what the recall is trying to stop.

The story I have just given you is a rough idea of what happened. I was not there to witness it. I was able to compile what happened by talking to numerous people involved in those meetings. However, everyone I talked to agreed that these 5 Reps, starting with Steve Crimi forced the company to negotiate a much better deal than they tried to force on us with the help of our leadership and our advisors.

The BPR Reps that were afraid to fight for us and had changed their minds to send out the substandard MOU with a "yes" recommendation were PHL Rep Jamie Weidner. DCA Reps Joe Stein and Pete Dugstad and the 3 PHX Reps. In other words, the usual suspects. Gary Hummel did his very best to bring us the original MOU without the retro pay along with others in USAPA leadership.

The leaders of this recall movement are lifetime members of the Chip Munn fan club and in fact Chip Munn is one of the leaders of this movement. Richard Alter is another along with Manny Lopez and Tim McGirk among others that I hope to expose in the near future. They are working hand in glove with Rob Streble to have those Reps removed as quickly as possible. Once that takes place, they hope to elect their own people that will work closely with the DCA Reps, Jamie Weidner and the PHX Reps. That has been their dream since the end of ALPA. Control the union again - work to bring the Nicolau Award to the property because "it's binding" and give the company what it needs. The "give-a-way-crowd" as they were once and forever known

After this is over, a recall of Rob Streble needs to take place. We need to have integrity once again in the Secretary-Treasurer position.

I have a demand from these recall voters. If this merger goes through and we get our retroactive pay, that you not take it since you are so willing to remove the people that brought it to you. Allow us to divide it among the pilots that vote to keep those 3 Reps in office because we will deserve it. Otherwise, you are nothing but Hypocrites!

There is a great deal more real work to come. If this merger takes place, we will need a strong leader at the table along with the APA and whatever management takes over for a final, fair and binding contract. We need the right people that will argue our seniority if arbitration is necessary to ensure a fair outcome of the seniority issue.

To make sure we have the right people there to oversee this, we need to make sure the 3 CLT Reps remain in office and make sure that Jamie Weidner never gets re-elected. I gave up on the DCA Reps years ago. They might as well be living in PHX.

If you have a friend in CLT and most of us do, please get in touch with them. Talk to him or her. Send this email and others like it. Let them know who is behind this recall movement and why. Make sure they understand what happened in those meetings, who got us the better MOU and how important it is to have people in there that are willing to fight for what they believe in and for us.

Also, if you can, please attend the NAC road shows. If you still have doubts as to what happened as I related them, by all means ask the NAC yourself. Nothing like watching them squirm...

And if you have a few extra dollars (and who does) please send it to the CLT Reps so they can get their story out there to defend themselves against this unbelievably stupid recall. Rob Streble is blocking their attempts to defend themselves.

NEXT ON DECK THE PENSION INVESTGATION, A HUGE PROBLEM FOR "GIVE IT AWAY GARY" Especially after the last court showdown! THANK A CLT REP! AND PHL minus jamie!

Best post in years. the second mou was substantially better than the first. Still not great as IMHO not enough lump sum for back pay.

But

Keep shuttle flying
87 million over 6 years in improvements
Pay protection for downgrades
E190 captains get group 3 FO pay
There is probably more

I have no doubt the CLT reps played large part in holding the line and getting an improved document.

 

[cleardirect]

It's inadequate in so many ways, I would think a great deal of westies would think so to, even less in it for them.

Take a look at the easy to see side by side comparison of the just released information from the NAC.

Look down through all the contract provisions. Compare the east contract to the west contract, then compare that to the new contract.

With the exception of a few items. The west is moving backwards in many areas.

Would you like to talk about who had the worst contract in the industry? Look beyond pay rates. The west had some good things. This new contract is going to be cost neutral at best maybe even cost the west pilots money when netted out.

The only thing we are going to gain is usapa is dead and the Nicolau which we should have had 5 years ago.