Company Provides Alpa With New Proposal
- Thread starter USA320Pilot
- Start date
ONTHESTREET
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- Aug 20, 2002
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The only honorable thing left is to tell Lakefield to run it with what they have and take the chance with the judge. If U dies, so be it.
If ALPA officially signs off on out of senority furloughs it will be the complete destruction of the entire industy, and an end to what used to be a good career. All other carriers will follow suit, and with a precident set by USAirways it will be easy pickings. IAM will get the same treatment followed by the rest.
Although I can see where A-320 might like the idea, he figures that he is safe from furlough and will move up. I submit another option that I am sure the company is considering. There are 1000 + highly experienced pilots that have lots of time in U airplanes...all on 4 year or less pay if recalled. If the company cuts to the 150 aircraft number, the 1000 "new hires" of 99-01 are much cheaper for the company than the pilots of A320's vintage. If they give away senority it is only a matter of time before only the new hires are left, Despite how important 320 thinks he is. And it doesn't even have to be the furloughees, any pilot from an RJ operator that will work cheap will suffice. Restaffing the entire airline with newhires will still be cheaper than continuing with the 20 and 30 year guys.
This is the path that we are looking at now.............which way will we go?
If ALPA officially signs off on out of senority furloughs it will be the complete destruction of the entire industy, and an end to what used to be a good career. All other carriers will follow suit, and with a precident set by USAirways it will be easy pickings. IAM will get the same treatment followed by the rest.
Although I can see where A-320 might like the idea, he figures that he is safe from furlough and will move up. I submit another option that I am sure the company is considering. There are 1000 + highly experienced pilots that have lots of time in U airplanes...all on 4 year or less pay if recalled. If the company cuts to the 150 aircraft number, the 1000 "new hires" of 99-01 are much cheaper for the company than the pilots of A320's vintage. If they give away senority it is only a matter of time before only the new hires are left, Despite how important 320 thinks he is. And it doesn't even have to be the furloughees, any pilot from an RJ operator that will work cheap will suffice. Restaffing the entire airline with newhires will still be cheaper than continuing with the 20 and 30 year guys.
This is the path that we are looking at now.............which way will we go?
L
luvn737s
Guest
I'm not sure what you understand, to me a lockout would be a big problem not only for the crews, but also for the passengers who paid for flights that will not operate. The amount of money that the credit card companies would require as collateral going forward if US pulled such a stunt would swamp them.USA320Pilot said:
Am I to believe there is someone in upper management at US that is saying, "Get that Airbus pilot on the phone and tell him to spread the word that the pilots are going to be locked out. Yes I know it's 2 or 3 weeks away, but tell him anyhow, they need time to prepare a response.
Yes, a loyal employee with a full sick bank, willing to take any broken piece of crap anytime anywhere, that's the kind of pilot we need. Mesa will be lucky to get him. Oh, and tell him his vacation is cancelled. "
USA330pilot says: "If a deal was obtained over the summer, Chapter 11 could have been avoided, according to ALPA's advisors (legal, financial, and economists".
Bruce says: If I got [an agreement ratified by 3,000 rank-and-file pilots] last week, I am not sure it would have made a difference".
Hmm, who to believe? Someone who takes a guess or the gent in charge?
USA330pilot says: "If there is an out of seniority furlough I understand it will be a lock out, therefore, there will be no problem".
No? You may want to hang on to your hat!
USA330Ppilot says: "So not shoot the messenger because I told readers on this board this could occur and it's the ATSB driving the ship.'
After all, you told them over and over again. Just like the painful clause in the IAM contract or that the CWU should accept etc.
From this observers perch: You sir, are incredible!
Respectfully,
Dizel8
Bruce says: If I got [an agreement ratified by 3,000 rank-and-file pilots] last week, I am not sure it would have made a difference".
Hmm, who to believe? Someone who takes a guess or the gent in charge?
USA330pilot says: "If there is an out of seniority furlough I understand it will be a lock out, therefore, there will be no problem".
No? You may want to hang on to your hat!
USA330Ppilot says: "So not shoot the messenger because I told readers on this board this could occur and it's the ATSB driving the ship.'
After all, you told them over and over again. Just like the painful clause in the IAM contract or that the CWU should accept etc.
From this observers perch: You sir, are incredible!
Respectfully,
Dizel8
AgentOrange
Member
- Apr 19, 2004
- 31
- 0
ua767fo said:
I guess this proves for sure that egos, stubbornness, and Pyrrhic victories are overrated.
We can make a Mastercard commercial out of this:
ALPA Advisor: $200 an hour
Shuttle ticket to labor negotiations: $5 (ticket fees)
Massaging an overpaid newly unemployed pilot's ego: Priceless
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
- Aug 23, 2002
- 2,627
- 945
The way I figure it, as soon as the ATSB can pull the money, they will. Better have a plan for Oct 16th. Makes the whole furlough thing irrelevant. You know who mainly to blame? Bronner and his blind reliance on a STUPID business plan developed by Dave and gang. Oh, and not to mention his BIG MOUTH!
michael707767
Senior
- Aug 21, 2002
- 332
- 0
savyinvestor said:
You are right on the money. All this time USA320 has said he just wants to save the company. His true colors are showing. Bottom line, he is out to save his own a*s even at the expense of his fellow pilots.
If the company furloughed out of seniority, I would walk. I would not stand by and allow them to mess with the system all airline unions are built on. My bet, USA320 wil gladly keep his job while people senior to him get layed off.
jack mama
Senior
- Nov 18, 2003
- 392
- 0
It out of the company's hands....if GECAS or whoever, wants all their 737s back....wham, they're gone. The only way for the company to survive that is to furlough all of the 737 crews. There is no time for them to move around and retrain etc.
ALPA will have to choose the lesser of two evils....what would you choose?
ALPA will have to choose the lesser of two evils....what would you choose?
Didn't US Airways sign a 20-year sole source agreement with Airbus? The goal was to streamline the mainline fleet into a all Airbus fleet. American, Continental, and Delta did the same thing with Boeing. I recall when AA, CO, and DL, signed their agreement, the Europeans (Airbus) through a fit and went before the World Trade Organization mooning about this.
michael707767
Senior
- Aug 21, 2002
- 332
- 0
jack mama said:
I would and will choose not to undue the seniority system which all airline unions are based on. This is every airline management groups wet dream. Basically get rid of seniority. How long before they want more than to furlough out of seniority? How long before they hire out of seniority? Have a vacancy on the A-330, great hire some kid from Mesa, he's cheaper than out own 20 year 757 F/O. Spot open up on the day shift for a mechanic? Super, hire someone off the street, or the guys already here can take a pay cut if they want it. Add some international flying. Terrific, lets hire some young, skinny, good looking FA's, after all, pax don't like those senior mama's.
You know, USA320Pilot, I've read your posts both on the UAL and US forum and although I don't agree with most of them and often times you were wrong, I think people in the past gave you a hard time, unnecessarily at times. But your recent postings on this thread concerning out of seniority furloughs absolutely disgust me as a fellow ALPA member, and I don't even work at US Air.
Those 4 members were elected officals, elected by their respective memberships. They didn't break any rules doing what they did. They made a difficult decision and did what they thought was best for their membership, which was unfortunately contrary to your personal beliefs, and perhaps the beliefs of a few others who had the time to attend the meetings you mention in previous posts. However, simply because a minority have the time in their schedules to voice their opinion publicly does not mean that the RC4 did not represent the majority of pilots, and to imply such a thing is ridiculous.
*****It’s my understanding the out of seniority furlough for pilots would be instantaneous and by fleet type, which would likely eliminate most of the non-A320 pilots. The plan would be implemented similar in scope to the TPA hangar closure and we would a lock out, where people like Mwereplanes, Walmartgreeter, BoeingBoy, and two of the RC4 would be furloughed out of seniority, without severance pay, and no MDA option.*******
Writing the above and basically stating that because the above members don't agree with your position and therefore implying they're going to get what they deserve is pretty damn low USA320pilot. Damn low. I'm sure you had no problem with ALPA and its rules when it allowed you to advance to the A320 Captain position in an orderly fashion during your career based upon your seniority, when you were collecting your paychecks on time over the past X amount of years, but when the going gets tough and you don't get your way, you gleefully post that those in disagreement with you are going to lose their jobs and you "told them so." Take your pin off- you are a disgrace. If anything, as a senior union member having enjoyed the benefits of ALPA membership over the vast majority of your career, you should be posting how quickly the airline will cease to exist if anything even remotely like that is considered.
What's next, USA320pilot? Using your logic, we should cast aside the laws of our country and mark our elected officials and their constituents for personal injury and harassment if they vote in a disagreeable way? Especially if we've "told them so?"
Those 4 members were elected officals, elected by their respective memberships. They didn't break any rules doing what they did. They made a difficult decision and did what they thought was best for their membership, which was unfortunately contrary to your personal beliefs, and perhaps the beliefs of a few others who had the time to attend the meetings you mention in previous posts. However, simply because a minority have the time in their schedules to voice their opinion publicly does not mean that the RC4 did not represent the majority of pilots, and to imply such a thing is ridiculous.
*****It’s my understanding the out of seniority furlough for pilots would be instantaneous and by fleet type, which would likely eliminate most of the non-A320 pilots. The plan would be implemented similar in scope to the TPA hangar closure and we would a lock out, where people like Mwereplanes, Walmartgreeter, BoeingBoy, and two of the RC4 would be furloughed out of seniority, without severance pay, and no MDA option.*******
Writing the above and basically stating that because the above members don't agree with your position and therefore implying they're going to get what they deserve is pretty damn low USA320pilot. Damn low. I'm sure you had no problem with ALPA and its rules when it allowed you to advance to the A320 Captain position in an orderly fashion during your career based upon your seniority, when you were collecting your paychecks on time over the past X amount of years, but when the going gets tough and you don't get your way, you gleefully post that those in disagreement with you are going to lose their jobs and you "told them so." Take your pin off- you are a disgrace. If anything, as a senior union member having enjoyed the benefits of ALPA membership over the vast majority of your career, you should be posting how quickly the airline will cease to exist if anything even remotely like that is considered.
What's next, USA320pilot? Using your logic, we should cast aside the laws of our country and mark our elected officials and their constituents for personal injury and harassment if they vote in a disagreeable way? Especially if we've "told them so?"
AgentOrange
Member
- Apr 19, 2004
- 31
- 0
I think USA320Pilot is dead right.
His [her] arguments are logical, valid, and [gasp] define the best interests of the pilots as their job security and their pay, not their egos and irrational desire to claim subjective victory in a negotiation.
Instead of listening to him [her], the gallery vilifies him [her] for selling out his [her] fellow pilots. This is irrational and assumes incorrectly that those who want to fight are automatically correct even though they are not acting rationally to maximize their financial outcomes.
Someone said here there would have been Ch. 11 even with a deal two weeks ago- that does not absolve the ALPA of fault for delaying negotiations to early Sep so management could not finish negotiations with other unions.
It remains entirely irrelevant for people to claim management is not negotiating in good faith by reducing offers with passage of time. Their past offers are no benchmark when the process is now in bankruptcy court and creditors control the company.
It remains irrational for people to suggest that the pilots are better off "taking their chances" with a bankruptcy judge; they continue to want to fight even as the odds decline at every step to salvage a deal similar to management's original summer offer. This is irrational and proves the extent to which emotion has seeped into the decision process.
As pilots, the group or its proxies have not listened to objective appraisals from bankers, the history of how business works in bankruptcy court, or anything else rational. There remains no plausible outcome posited by the militants as to how continued intransigence results in a better financial outcome than agreeing to a deal now.
Short sellers made money easy again. Emotion is easy to prey on.
His [her] arguments are logical, valid, and [gasp] define the best interests of the pilots as their job security and their pay, not their egos and irrational desire to claim subjective victory in a negotiation.
Instead of listening to him [her], the gallery vilifies him [her] for selling out his [her] fellow pilots. This is irrational and assumes incorrectly that those who want to fight are automatically correct even though they are not acting rationally to maximize their financial outcomes.
Someone said here there would have been Ch. 11 even with a deal two weeks ago- that does not absolve the ALPA of fault for delaying negotiations to early Sep so management could not finish negotiations with other unions.
It remains entirely irrelevant for people to claim management is not negotiating in good faith by reducing offers with passage of time. Their past offers are no benchmark when the process is now in bankruptcy court and creditors control the company.
It remains irrational for people to suggest that the pilots are better off "taking their chances" with a bankruptcy judge; they continue to want to fight even as the odds decline at every step to salvage a deal similar to management's original summer offer. This is irrational and proves the extent to which emotion has seeped into the decision process.
As pilots, the group or its proxies have not listened to objective appraisals from bankers, the history of how business works in bankruptcy court, or anything else rational. There remains no plausible outcome posited by the militants as to how continued intransigence results in a better financial outcome than agreeing to a deal now.
Short sellers made money easy again. Emotion is easy to prey on.
AgentOrange said:
As an airline pilot, I believe this guy runs scared, is afraid of any future without his ego in the left seat of an AAA airplane, and is offensive to many of us who love this profession. Note, I did not say job. He seems to think that any job is better than no job and looking. Many on here have a one word answer to that: WRONG
I once again ask USA320Pilot: Sir, turn in your ALPA pin and display a modicum of dignity. You Sir are not a union brother.
Acting (as you say) rationally to maximize financial outcomes is not always what is best for the profession. ALPA pilots, being members of both a union and professional organization , overall are probably better off by not having a large labor group capitualate to the demands of unreasonable (my judgement) management. It is for this reason that I stand behind the RC4 publically, the rEAL pilots, the NWA, Comair and UAL strikers, and labor in general.
DENVER, CO
