City of Dallas tells Delta it can no longer fly out of Love Field

[topDawg]

Suddenly we're acting like Delta is doing something innovative by putting its metal on more LHR routes? The reality is that these markets under-perform for Virgin Atlantic, and Delta, with it's cheaper costs and planes, is simply trying to help make those losses less by inserting its metal. 

good lord. The amount of mis-information on this site is down right scary. 
DL/Virgin are going 3x daily in the LAX-LHR market. (sorry about saying that isn't the case btw WT) and while Delta is taking over one of the EWR-LHR flights its allowing Virgin to add another JFK-LHR flights. 
 
So clearly Delta/virgin is adding capacity into NYC-LHR (and NYC-UK) as well as LAX-LHR because they are under-preforming. Just because that is what AA does, it doesn't mean the rest of the world's carriers love to burn money. 
 
And Delta doesn't have cheaper cost than Virgin to the east cost, they fly with one less pilot than DL does. 
 

 
And, of course - lest we forget while focusing on all the latest moves from Delta's crack internet legal team - the pretty important confounding variable here is that, in general, Delta's hubs tend to be in smaller (demographically and economically) places, which is the main motivator for Delta having to move into other carriers' hubs.  It's true that Delta can typically milk several of its fortress hubs for relatively higher margins, but that's also because, in general, they are markets with more limited demand and growth potential that aren't worth fighting over, whereas Delta wants (need) in on the economic (revenue) behemoths like NYC, LAX, etc. more critically.
 
Oh man ... I've really done it now ...

Hmm funny you should say that considering just how much larger DL is than AA in New York. 
 
but hey, for an airline always in second or third place in major markets you just keep right on talking. Good for AA that they are in second in ORD and third in NYC. I'll be sure to send someone at AA a big cookie. 
 
Oh but they are number in LAX, and still can't beat United on China flying. Man I am sure the boys in Atlanta are so jealous.      that profitable flying to China from SEA and DTW must just suck compared to the loss leaders over at AA to China. 
 
Hey guys, maybe you should toss to many stones at WT. Posting foolishness just to get him going is still you posting foolishness. Just a small idea. (or maybe take the pissing contests over to flyertalk...) 
 

I assume that UA plans to increase its flights at DAL in two weeks.   Last time I looked at the UA schedule from DFW, there were too many daily flights for UA to simply move its DFW operations over to DAL, unless UA was willing to sacrifice some frequencies (I think UA has about 30+ daily departures from DFW).  

No they are just adding a few more IAH flights and gate sitting by causing long gate sits. 

 

[swamt]

So this should be fun...
 
Last day is slated to be 10/13...
 
 
http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2014/09/its-official-city-tells-a-disappointed-delta-airlines-it-can-no-longer-fly-out-of-dallas-love-field.html/

 
 

Why lie? I came here just to enjoy WT's hubris crashing down all around him

 
 

 
Oh I can't wait for the legal lectures. 
Again. 
Although I must admit that I learned a lot in the WN forum when the DAL gate divesture was being discussed.  Essentially I learned that all the diatribes WT wrote were incorrect ............

Well, well, well, WT  Now what do you have to say?    ITYS!!!  Do you know what that stands for?  No you do not because YOU cannot comprehend.  I will tell you.  It stands for, "I TOLD YOU SO"  HA!  HA!  Give credit where credit is due.  This is exactly why Kev started a new thread.  NOT because he is a Delta employee, but because YOU, WT, have been proven wrong once again.  I have told you and told you this was coming.  I have said that Delta would be lucky to remain at Love Field after the W/A goes away.  And yes, you did in fact say that Delta would file any and all kinds of law suits if they were treated THE EXACT SAME WAY THEY WERE JUST TREATED.  I told you and I told you and I told you WT, IF Delta does not end up "sharing gates" at Love Field they may very well be asked to vacate the airport.  You said this will never ever happen and Delta will file suits and use the legal system to it's fullest to remain there.  Now where are we WT?  I told you this was coming, point blank. You chose to dismiss my information as some dumb-ass that knows nothing.  Get a clue buddy, I'm tied a little closer than you know.  Have delta file their suits, they will waste their money JUST as I have told you before, but by all means pls file the suits.   Now, let see who will have the better cost per passengers out of DAL after W/A is gone.  Bye-Bye Delta from Love Field, good ridence, and, as I said before, and as the articles are also pointing out that Delta will now have to refund ALOT of passengers money or tranfer all flights over to DFW, which is what I told you too.  You Just gotta LUV this stuff man!!!
 
No disrespect to any of the Delta employees being displaced from the recent announcement of Delta being fired from Love Field.  It really just felt good telling WT {ONCE AGAIN} "I TOLD YOU SO"
 
Happy reading WT:
 
 City puts the brakes on Delta at Dallas Love Field

 

[swamt]

Am I rubbing it in?
Yea, maybe a little...

 

[swamt]

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised at this outcome. Simply stunned.

It also changes the outcome of a certain wager that was made when the whole Love Field Gate Follies started, no?...

Why so stunned E?  Read the full verbiage of the W/A agreement and you will know why.   And I do believe I am the winner of said bet.  
Celebration dance in the works, who wants a drink?  I'm buying,  even for you WT, what's your flavor?

 

[topDawg]

Am I rubbing it in?
Yea, maybe a little...

wouldn't say the game is called just yet. 
 

Why so stunned E?  Read the full verbiage of the W/A agreement and you will know why.   And I do believe I am the winner of said bet.  
Celebration dance in the works, who wants a drink?  I'm buying,  even for you WT, what's your flavor?

from my understand the WA does say that Dallas is suppose to find space for a carrier who wants to operate there. 
 
I wouldn't be doing to many dances, IF Delta decides to take this to court I believe they will have ground to stand on. Like we saw when your company tried to throw its weight around with the DL/US slot swap, Delta is willing to fight. Very interested to see how the company reacts in the next few days. 
 
I am however not sure Delta will fight the good fight over 5 flights a day on CR9s and 717s.  

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Not once did I say that Dl would pursue a legal solution without condition.

not once.

Have you ever written anything without condition(s)?

Ever?

Just to get the laughs going: care to explain how DL can/will attempt to litigate access to DAL as a 'new entrant'?
 

the pretty important confounding variable here is that, in general, Delta's hubs tend to be in smaller (demographically and economically) places, which is the main motivator for Delta having to move into other carriers' hubs.

B I N G O !!!!!!

 

from my understand the WA does say that Dallas is suppose to find space for a carrier who wants to operate there.

I think you're correct. However the city of Dallas can just say that they've asked/approached WN and UA and both carriers told them that they do not have any vacant gates.

 

[WorldTraveler]

UA is adding frequencies from IAH to DAL on the same 2 weeks notice that DL is getting that they can't serve DAL.

UA is adding JUST enough frequencies that DL's schedule won't work.

DL new all along that this was the risk of being forced into using UA's gates even if that was the requirement of the 2006 revisions to the Wright Amendment.

DL may or may not have legal options but they absolutely do have competitive options. It is not a surprise that IAH is the only large Texas city that DL has not chosen to serve to either LAX or SEA. DEN is the largest city in the west that DL does not serve to LAX or SEA. ORD makes a whole lot of sense connected to DL's SEA hub.

From UA's standpoint, their decision to put a half dozen more RJs to block DL WILL turn out to be one of the most costly competitive decisions they have made... and they have made some REALLY stupid decisions.


yes, dawg, you are right. There were TWO DL-VS rounds of LHR changes. IN the first, DL took over ONE of VS' LAX flights but the DL flight remained EVEN WHEN VS added a second, plus the extra JFK flight which is part of DL taking over the EWR route.

Still doesn't change that DL has the ability to market EWR as one unit - 3 TATL flights plus a domestic network alongside JFK and LGA that is larger and more comprehensive than what UA can do in NYC.

and it isn't just about UA. DL has 12 by 12 foot signs advertising the move of the LGA-BOS Shuttle leg positioned right in front of Terminal C at LGA, right after the security checkpoint, and right before you approach the US gates. Obviously, US signed over complete control for signage at the terminal along with the gates to DL. but then Parker wasn't smart enough to realize that after he merged with AA, he was selling 125 slots to DL for the bargain basement price of $500K per slot pair in what has got to be the airline equivalent of the Louisiana purchase and the Alaska purchase all rolled up in one transaction.

WN isn't getting any more gates either. If there is any legal challenge, it will likely be to ensure that if there are every any free gates, the requirement will be that DL be allowed to return before any existing carrier can expand.

WN may expand DAL but E is right that they are forever boxed in at an airport where they can't grow while at the world's largest airport they are pulling down one route after another; they can't argue they are serving the local market when they don't even fly it nonstop but DL does.

Given that UA relied on carrying passengers thru IAH to the rest of the US because they could, the chances are very high that their business will not be near as robust as it once was, esp. as WN grows its presence from HOU to compete directly with IAH's Latin America operations.

AA, UA, and WN all have very clear reasons why they want to keep DL out of DAL; UA is the only carrier that didn't make statements about trying to block DL from LGA. What those carriers can't do is block DL from competing elsewhere in the country - and history is ripe with details of how successfully DL has done that.

And commavia, in his usual short-sighted comments fails to GRASP that the same markets that DL has grows as quickly as they have, predominantly in NYC- have one end in DL's hubs and the other end in AA's. It matters not the size of the local market in the DL hub if DL has won over the route that connects DL's supposedly smaller hub to AA's.

And the simple fact is that DL has a far larger share of the market that is between DL's hubs and other hubs than other carriers' hubs, including NYC. There is nothing to brag about on AA's part given that DL has 20% of each of LGA to ORD and DFW, 33% of the NYC-MIA market, and is now larger than AA from JFK to LAX and SFO.
You can argue all you want that AA decided they wanted to focus on the higher revenue market but the simple fact is they couldn't compete in those markets while DL can.

oh and one other note about the Atlantic. DL is making money and does on a year round basis. that is probably why Parker made his comment about DL and VS adding capacity to Europe even while he was forced to withdraw capacity from continental Europe.
Competition is based on generating profitable returns for stockholders. DL can do it across its network even while embracing competition.

AA can't - and with sleep-deprived FAs - they will be even less able to do so. AA, UA, and WN love to hide FROM competition.

DL runs towards it - and wins.

 

[robbedagain]

again its all the notion that only DL wins wins wins..  but DAL put the brakes on the winning there  so DL has to look else where   now had this been AA or UA  it would of been perfect in the eyes of WT yet bec its DL Wt has to defend DL staunchly while he slams me in another post for my so called defense of AA..  What a buffoon  He needs to get a life

 

[commavia]

again its all the notion that only DL wins wins wins..  but DAL put the brakes on the winning there  so DL has to look else where   now had this been AA or UA  it would of been perfect in the eyes of WT yet bec its DL Wt has to defend DL staunchly while he slams me in another post for my so called defense of AA..  What a buffoon  He needs to get a life

 
Nah you don't get it.
 
Delta is going to win - above all else - because of AA's "sleep-deprived FAs" making more money per hour than their counterparts at Delta, and with a union contract to protect them.
 
Another day, another hilarious, memorable quote ...

 

[swamt]

wouldn't say the game is called just yet. 
 
from my understand the WA does say that Dallas is suppose to find space for a carrier who wants to operate there. 
 
I wouldn't be doing to many dances, IF Delta decides to take this to court I believe they will have ground to stand on. Like we saw when your company tried to throw its weight around with the DL/US slot swap, Delta is willing to fight. Very interested to see how the company reacts in the next few days. 
 
I am however not sure Delta will fight the good fight over 5 flights a day on CR9s and 717s.  

You are correct Dawg.  The agreement does state this.  However, I think there is a clause or para that also states that if another carrier is not using it's gates to the fullest than the city can make room for an incoming carrier by allowing 2 carriers to share gates.  This is what I really thought was going to happen.  Apparently the "other" carriers are going to fully utilize their gates all day, I know SWA will for a fact.
 Your also correct about the game being called just yet.  I fully expect Delta to fight as hard as they can to remain at LF (including suits) and the end game could end up being anything.  My celebration victory dance was merely a rub-in towards WT.  Let's all wait and see over the next few days and see if there was a red flag thrown for a review of the last play, IF there is ANY evidence of a reversal then it could very well get overturned.  However, all of that is between Delta and COD and has nothing to do with the other airlines unless they end up sharing gates...

 

[swamt]

again its all the notion that only DL wins wins wins..  but DAL put the brakes on the winning there  so DL has to look else where   now had this been AA or UA  it would of been perfect in the eyes of WT yet bec its DL Wt has to defend DL staunchly while he slams me in another post for my so called defense of AA..  What a buffoon  He needs to get a life

And he starts his flip-flopping imediately.  Para 3 in the same post you are answering he says that Delta knew all along they may have to share gates with UAL.  There are pages upon pages where he was arguing with me 1-Delta won't have to share gates.  2-Delta will not be forced to leave LF. Typical WT as usual.  Here's another article for WT to read:
 
It's official: City tells a 'disappointed' Delta Air Lines it can no longer fly out of Dallas Love Field

 

[Kev3188]

Cranky weighs in:
 
http://crankyflier.com/2014/09/30/dallas-tells-delta-to-take-a-hike-no-room-for-the-airline-at-love-field/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CrankyFlier+%28The+Cranky+Flier%29

 

[WorldTraveler]

again its all the notion that only DL wins wins wins..  but DAL put the brakes on the winning there  so DL has to look else where   now had this been AA or UA  it would of been perfect in the eyes of WT yet bec its DL Wt has to defend DL staunchly while he slams me in another post for my so called defense of AA..  What a buffoon  He needs to get a life

 

Ï know the topic is WAY over your head but know this is not a case where if it happened to AA and UA it would be great.

Competition is good for everyone and it is bad when it is hindered.

AA did its best to lock up the market in N. Texas for as long as it could and when it was forced to open it up, it did its usual under the table bargaining with WN to allow only as much competition into the market as possible.

In markets such as LAX and NYC where such Texas sized loads of crap don't work their magic, DL is increasing its presence in those markets despite AA's far longer and larger advantage. There are plenty of other markets where DL will continue its march and it will absolutely be to AA's detriment.

 

Nah you don't get it.
 
Delta is going to win - above all else - because of AA's "sleep-deprived FAs" making more money per hour than their counterparts at Delta, and with a union contract to protect them.
 
Another day, another hilarious, memorable quote ...

I'm glad you enjoyed it but the crew rest issue highlights exactly the way Parker does business and why AA employees will quickly be just as disgruntled as US employees were. When a contract as big as the FA contract comes at costs as high as Parker was able to pull off and the APFA is now trying to sell, there are lots of employees who will decide it is simply not worth maintaining their fleeting loyalty to mgmt.

And we all know the service levels that US was known for.

and know, AA FAs will not make more than DL FAs.

the only thing that is industry leading is the further race for the bottom - which is precisely what AA unions have been so well known for doing in the past.

You still far underestimate the impact WN will have on AÁ's revenues at DFW which will only increase the pressure on AA overall.

throw in DL's growing pressure on AA at LHR and in NYC and growing competition in Latin America and AA will long for the days when DFW was a monopoly hub.
 

And he starts his flip-flopping imediately.  Para 3 in the same post you are answering he says that Delta knew all along they may have to share gates with UAL.  There are pages upon pages where he was arguing with me 1-Delta won't have to share gates.  2-Delta will not be forced to leave LF. Typical WT as usual.  Here's another article for WT to read:
 
It's official: City tells a 'disappointed' Delta Air Lines it can no longer fly out of Dallas Love Field

what planet are you on?

of course it was a given the minute the DOJ blocked DL from participating in the gate auction that the only chance for DL to stay at DAL was by leasing at UA and DL knew full well that this exact scenario could happen.

And I most certainly acknowledged it at the time of the DOJ's decision regarding DAL.

What you cannot debate is that the only way that WN can win in the market is by finding markets where it can compete AWAY from real competition - WN's network is built around dominating markets and limiting the ability of other carriers to serve the market.

WN's intent all along was to lock up DAL. Congrats they did it.

They may gain one more large city where they can dominate the long haul local market - and that hurts AA far more than anyone else... but it leaves WN unable to effectively compete in the top markets of the country, including from ATL where they invested billions on FL only to dismantle route after route.

so, no, what happens at DAL is hardly indicative of what will happen on a larger scale. WN just gains one more market where it can hide but it ultimately cannot in the most competitive markets in the country.


and yes, Cranky got it right

"But if you’re United, why would you ever want to let Delta stay in Love Field if you can prevent it? You wouldn’t. And apparently United is so afraid of Delta being there that it’s willing to burn a ton of cash to make it happen"


not only will United burn a lot of cash to keep DL out of DAL but they will face a whole new onslaught of DL competitive routes that have far greater impact than what UA could possibly get from a few routes at DAL.

another very stupid competitive calculation by UA.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

not only will United burn a lot of cash to keep DL out of DAL but they will face a whole new onslaught of DL competitive routes that have far greater impact than what UA could possibly get from a few routes at DAL.

Will this onslaught by DL against UA be the same as that which DL unleashed against JAL in NRT to finish them off JAL once and for all? How did that work out?

 

[robbedagain]

WT  what planet are you on? cuz it sure as heck aint here on earth.  You will never admit when youre wrong and when youre shown and proven to be wrong you make crap up etc  just like DL was gonna finish JAL off and yet they failed to do that  what a incompetent buffoon you really are.  Swamt proved u wrong too