City of Dallas still in talks with Delta about Love Field

[swamt]

should dl be forced out  it wont be against the will    esp if wn waits til the temporary lease is expired come july   but only time will tell     Id also be willing to bet DFW does better for DL  and UA compared to DAL   which could also help explain UA departure in addition to WN paying them to leave... DAL and move it to DFW....

 
 

I'm sure DL has plans A/B/C in place for whatever may come. JMHO, but I doubt they will take it as far through the courts as some on here think. As for Capitol Hill, they may get a sympathetic ear or two, but it's simply not a hot button issue for the nation (or any given constituency, for that matter)...
 
If they can't stay at DAL, they'll simply redeploy those assets elsewhere. That may mean further "optimizing" DFW to an extent, or elsewhere on the system.

 
 

swaamt, I don't know that DL's days are numbered. If they're smart, WN will maintain the status quo. No more, no less. DL will be pigeon-holed into their five flights a day, and that reduces their ability to go crying to a judge.

Since it appears Expressjet/Skywest/ASA/UnitedExpress or whoever was doing the ground handling leaving, does this mean DL will have to pay WN to handle its flights? Will DL be able to find a ground handler to handle five flights a day?

Perhaps it's time for DL to admit they've been outmaneuvered.

All 3 of you make very good points and I agree with them.  Robbed says that UAL and Delta would probably do better at DFW, I agree.  Kev said Delta more than likely has a plan and can redeploy assets elsewhere, I agree.  E says keep things as they are and keep Delta pigeon-holed where they are, I agree.  With all that said, it is in the works to add more gates at LF.  It would be wise for SWA, Virgin, UAL,Delta and even AA to all get together and use all resources to fight for the cap of 20 gates to be lifted and going with the original 32 that was planned.  At least this way all airlines could have a small pc of LF.  There are some subtle hints to something in the works by GK in the articles being circulated by the media, and at the same time he is still not saying point blank.  Here's one of the articles:
 
Southwest Airlines gaining two Dallas Love Field gates
 
PS:  Wondering what the other 6 new cities are?  Any guesses?

 

[WorldTraveler]

on this one, E is the only one that has it close to right. If Kev can find resources to launch LAX-PVG which seemed to be a last minute decision, they can come up with a couple narrowbodies to add a gate's worth of flying at DAL.

WN figured out a long time ago that all they need to do to keep the case out of court is to let DL have flights to ATL and not fly to CVG, DTW, MSP, SLC, or any other city DL serves from DFW that is not also served by another carrier from DAL besides WN.

I will support expanding DAL as well as lifting the int'l restrictions. it is obvious that the fear about protecting AA at DFW was right; DAL is a very viable and successful airport to DFW but DFW Is nowhere close to being on the verge of collapse because DAL has been built out.

DFW is a valuable market and if AA is unable to maintain their level of service (not happening any time in the near future) then someone else will step in.

I would also support AA's return to DAL since it is apparent that WN needs no protection whatsoever. the airport sells itself.

But I would support an expansion of DAL ONLY IF common use gates are made available AS WELL AS permanent gates for any carrier that wants to serve the airport on a regular basis.

If the Dallas neighbors are worried about noise, require that the lowest noise class of aircraft be used extensively.

The Wright Amendment was wrong; removal of restrictions was the first step in the right direction.

Finish the process and make it work for everyone, not just WN
[/quote]

 

[metopower]

I'm wondering what the deal was that got UA to sell the leases? Has to be more then just money....DL would have payed top dollar for those gates. Just like the gates in LAX something else sweetened the deal to get UA to move. Now it appears that WN will be the landlord for DL"s gate. Is there any change other then that?

 

[WorldTraveler]

UA couldn't make the economics of DAL work primarily because they have only used 50 seat RJs. There are fewer and fewer connections that UA can carry. They wanted out and they wanted to take DL with them to make sure no legacy carrier could have an advantage at DAL. And of course UA is trying to keep its disgust with DL's buildup of SEA to a low roar (while both focus on AA's attempts at growing LAX to Asia).

I'm not sure DL was even given the opportunity to talk with UA about the gates; DL has tried before and UA wouldn't deal.

The DOJ should have stepped in and required that the gates become common use but they have completely failed at ensuring competition is enhanced at DAL. There is nothing that stops WN from using common use gates if no one else wants them..... but it ensures that there are gates for other carriers. Given that DL has repeatedly spoken about the lack of common use gates at DAL, I am sure that if WN tries to eliminate DL's meager sublease, DL will seek legal or governmental action precisely on that point.

 

[700UW]

Then why do you oppose a second airport in the ATL area?
 
Cant have it both ways.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't oppose a 2nd airport.

the Paulding county community does.

You have never been able to figure that out?

 

[eolesen]

Dunno, swaamt. I don't see Fort Worth or the local community jumping on the bandwagon to expand DAL beyond 20 gates, nor do I see DFW jumping on either, since they've already seen a traffic drop since October which may or may not be due to DAL's opening.

32 gates would certainly give breathing room, but it would also possibly increase the noise by 50%.

 

[WorldTraveler]

neither Ft. Worth or DFW are at least should be the least bit threatened by what is going on at DAL.

DFW is decades old and will always be one of the world's busiest airports.

I have a feeling that AA would be more than interested in making a few calls to DFW and Ft. Worth to convince them of AA's commitment to DFW if AA could return to DAL.

And, no noise doesn't necessarily have to increase. Noise abatement procedures exist that could improve the noise profile.

more than 1/3 of WN's current DAL schedule is operated with older generation 737s instead of 737-700s and -800s.

WN could start moving dirt by the end of the year if they make sure everyone that wants to gets a piece of the action.

there is no doubt that AA and DL would like to be in the party far more than they are today whether UA has bowed out or not.

 

[swamt]

Dunno, swaamt. I don't see Fort Worth or the local community jumping on the bandwagon to expand DAL beyond 20 gates, nor do I see DFW jumping on either, since they've already seen a traffic drop since October which may or may not be due to DAL's opening.

32 gates would certainly give breathing room, but it would also possibly increase the noise by 50%.

I say so what? But yes your correct.  Would be great to see it open to 32 though...

 

[swamt]

I'm wondering what the deal was that got UA to sell the leases? Has to be more then just money....DL would have payed top dollar for those gates. Just like the gates in LAX something else sweetened the deal to get UA to move. Now it appears that WN will be the landlord for DL"s gate. Is there any change other then that?

I read where the investors put pressure on UAL to relocate as the flights at LF were barely making a profit if any at all.  Still wondering if Delta might do the same thing?  Not sure if they are or are not making or barely making profit at LF.  I would also think it would be more efficient to keep all flights out of Dallas at one airport, but what do I know?  Guess we will all see in July when all the drama starts all over again.  SWA and Virgin should start a fare war and let it play out.  It looks like SWA has already started one going to ATL...
 
Launching The Month Of Love: Southwest Airlines Shows Atlanta Its Heart
 
With the new gates offered to SWA by United, will greatly help SWA to expand at LF.  From what I have read SWA wants even more gates.  With United leaving LF, it gives Delta even less of a chance to remain at LF as United wasn't using their gates to their fullest, SWA will be utilizing them quite well...
 
Southwest Airlines adds 2 gates at Dallas Love Field, deal with United, more nonstops

 

[jimntx]

Well, anyone with half a brain can see that WN has started a whole bunch of money-losing flights just to use up all their gates and so they can then say they have no space to spare.  DL will take over LF when WN goes into Ch. 7 bankruptcy, but that will also make it possible for DL to drive AA back into bankruptcy.  After all, most DFW area passengers would much prefer to fly to ATL first before going to their destinations.
 
Or, maybe they'll just sue somebody.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I read where the investors put pressure on UAL to relocate as the flights at LF were barely making a profit if any at all.  Still wondering if Delta might do the same thing?  Not sure if they are or are not making or barely making profit at LF.  I would also think it would be more efficient to keep all flights out of Dallas at one airport, but what do I know?  Guess we will all see in July when all the drama starts all over again.  SWA and Virgin should start a fare war and let it play out.  It looks like SWA has already started one going to ATL...
 
Launching The Month Of Love: Southwest Airlines Shows Atlanta Its Heart
 
With the new gates offered to SWA by United, will greatly help SWA to expand at LF.  From what I have read SWA wants even more gates.  With United leaving LF, it gives Delta even less of a chance to remain at LF as United wasn't using their gates to their fullest, SWA will be utilizing them quite well...
 
Southwest Airlines adds 2 gates at Dallas Love Field, deal with United, more nonstops

your market ignorance is simply stunning.

the specific profits of any airline at any city are not known, including by investors. No investors pressured UA to cut DAL UA mgmt. did it based on the information they had.

and if WN wants to gain more gates, the last thing it should do is bully the small guy and monopolize the market.

WN IS NOT going to use its strength to push competitors out of the market unless it wants to be stuck permanently with the gates and restrictions at DAL it has now.

 

[DL2WN]

.

 

[eolesen]

I read where the investors put pressure on UAL to relocate as the flights at LF were barely making a profit if any at all.

Source, please?... I've never heard of investors getting that level of detail, although it is possible that they just made some assumptions that it was a waste of resources to try and serve both airports (which I think might be a valid conclusion for DL as well as UA). AA came to that conclusion when they were doing the 56 seat F100's, not to mention the dilution it was causing to the same markets out of DFW. Arguably, the same argument (it's a waste of resources) could also hold true of trying to serve MDW and ORD, or IAH and HOU, or LGB/BUR/LAX, although the distances and population densities between those airports are significant enough that they really do serve slightly different primary markets.

I'm sure that there are guys like Bob McAdoo who will try to extrapolate it from T-100 data, but the flaw in that approach is you can't really figure out what the network contribution is, nor can you really look at *who* is flying those DAL-IAH RT's and make a decision that it's lower risk to have them originate at DFW.

That's the type of info an airline would hold very, very closely.

 

[WNMECH]

I think he may have been referring to this story.
Its just not exactly as he remembers it.
 
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/10/analyst-criticizes-united-airlines-for-boosting-dallas-love-field-flights.html/