Champion Operated Nwa Flight 8/10 Dtwdfw

[JS]

Bull. Are you saying that just because a job pays little that the work is unneccisary? If the work did not need to be done then a high minimum wage might cause those jobs to be eliminated but not too many of those jobs really exist, except perhaps in the government and the government usually pays more than the minimum wage of any state. Areas that have legislated minimum wages have lower unemployment rates than areas that dont.

In the private sector, all work is necessary. Jobs that will be eliminated at $10/hour are those that cannot support production of $10/hour. For example, if you're operating a restaurant and you are bringing in $8/hour per employee in revenue less non-labor expenses, you can't pay your employees $10/hour. Well, you can until your bank runs dry, and then you close your doors (lost jobs).

Areas that have legislated higher minimum wages like New York and California have a higher cost of living, so it's a wash.

The fact is there are more jobs and more people working in the US than when we were primarily a manufacturer. The change is part of the change that comes with the Information era. The LCC ruse has been around longer than any of the LCCs have been around.

I agree. So what is the deal with these industrial unions that claim relevance?

Something in between Wal-Mart's illegal aliens & mandatory off-the-clock work (a.k.a. slavery) and featherbedding work rules & monopoly power wages would be nice.

??

What I am saying is that there is a middle ground between those two extremes. I hate Wal-Mart and do not shop there. But the idea of holding on to yesterday's wages/work rules (as in the case of NW today) is just not going to work.

 

[JS]

Not what I was saying what-so-ever JS. Any mechanical device or electronic component can malfunction. You try to reduce it as much as possible with quality maintenance.

What I am speaking to is the chances you take with your life when your squeaky cheap carriers junk fails in mid-flight because the public now demands to fly Walmart Air coast to coast for $98 round trip. That sure is a great deal. That is until the Blue Light Special your riding in can't pull over at the nearest airport because its slightly out of control.

Experts predict with the continued outsourcing of heavy maintenance, and the inability of the FAA to oversee the chop shops, more tragic incidents will follow. As someone who has been in the aircraft maintenance profession over 20 years, I can see it coming.

Did you see the news today on that Greek Boeing 737? Bodies frozen solid, must of been an extreme loss of cabin pressure at 30,000+ feet. Very sad news.

[post="288457"][/post]​

Doesn't Southwest outcource their heavy maintence? Their planes don't fall out of the sky.

 

[Bob Owens]

JS,Aug 15 2005, 11:06 PM]
In the private sector, all work is necessary. Jobs that will be eliminated at $10/hour are those that cannot support production of $10/hour. For example, if you're operating a restaurant and you are bringing in $8/hour per employee in revenue less non-labor expenses, you can't pay your employees $10/hour. Well, you can until your bank runs dry, and then you close your doors (lost jobs).

Areas that have legislated higher minimum wages like New York and California have a higher cost of living, so it's a wash.

The point you brought up was that it would result in lost jobs, it hasnt in New York or California despite the higher cost of living. According to you if the minimum wage was increased it would result in lost jobs. The fact is, as you agreed, since the minimum wage was instituted there are more jobs than ever before. The minimum wage has not resulted in lost jobs. If anything it increases jobs because it puts more money in the hands of people who are likely to consume all their income.Henry Ford realized this concept when he gave his workers a raise.

I agree. So what is the deal with these industrial unions that claim relevance?

I dont know what you read but your reply has nothing to do with what you quoted.Maybe you figure that Industrial means "manufacturing", it can, but it can also apply to "service" which is also an industry.

What I am saying is that there is a middle ground between those two extremes. I hate Wal-Mart and do not shop there. But the idea of holding on to yesterday's wages/work rules (as in the case of NW today) is just not going to work.


Such as?

 

[Hackman]

Doesn't Southwest outcource their heavy maintence? Their planes don't fall out of the sky.

[post="288509"][/post]​

Yes SWA does outsource a lot of its maintenance. I hear that is changing, and they are bringing what they can back inhouse. I have heard they are building new hangers for the start up of some heavy check lines. SWA also has as much money as they need to fix the fleet as required

Read this again smart guy:
Experts predict with the continued outsourcing of heavy maintenance, and the inability of the FAA to oversee the chop shops, more tragic incidents will follow. As someone who has been in the aircraft maintenance profession over 20 years, I can see it coming.

Where did I say "planes are falling out of the sky" right now? That's right, I did not. Although some have if you remember the ComAir commuter that went down because the flight controls were improperly rigged by outsourced unexperienced mechanic who never had done this critical job.

Read this to help open your blind eyes:

http://www.amfanatl.org/Pages/14_Leg_Iss/P...Rpt_050802.html

 

[JS]

The point you brought up was that it would result in lost jobs, it hasnt in New York or California despite the higher cost of living. According to you if the minimum wage was increased it would result in lost jobs. The fact is, as you agreed, since the minimum wage was instituted there are more jobs than ever before. The minimum wage has not resulted in lost jobs. If anything it increases jobs because it puts more money in the hands of people who are likely to consume all their income.Henry Ford realized this concept when he gave his workers a raise.

If you raise the minimum wage aside from the increase due to higher cost of living (such as New York or California), jobs will be lost.

I dont know what you read but your reply has nothing to do with what you quoted.Maybe you figure that Industrial means "manufacturing", it can, but it can also apply to "service" which is also an industry.

What you said is that there are more jobs today than ever before because of the knowledge economy, and I agree. In a knowledge economy, you do not need industrial unions.

Airlines are unique in that while they provide a service and not a physical good to customers, essentially they are a heavy industry because of 1) large capital costs and 2) federal laws on cabotage, which lead to 3) high barriers to entry (entry at all is easy but entry to be a major airline is tough since you have to grow from the very beginning) and 4) high barriers to exit (witness UA and US still around).

It took longer for the manufacturers to move overseas because they had spent a lot of money building these factories and didn't want to close them on a whim. The industrial unions eventually forced their hand, and now they are gone.

 

[JS]

Yes SWA does outsource a lot of its maintenance. I hear that is changing, and they are bringing what they can back inhouse. I have heard they are building new hangers for the start up of some heavy check lines. SWA also has as much money as they need to fix the fleet as required

Read this again smart guy:
Experts predict with the continued outsourcing of heavy maintenance, and the inability of the FAA to oversee the chop shops, more tragic incidents will follow. As someone who has been in the aircraft maintenance profession over 20 years, I can see it coming.

Where did I say "planes are falling out of the sky" right now? That's right, I did not. Although some have if you remember the ComAir commuter that went down because the flight controls were improperly rigged by outsourced unexperienced mechanic who never had done this critical job.

Read this to help open your blind eyes:

http://www.amfanatl.org/Pages/14_Leg_Iss/P...Rpt_050802.html

[post="288541"][/post]​

I will be happy to continue this conversation with you if you remove the personal attacks from your post.

 

[Bob Owens]

If you raise the minimum wage aside from the increase due to higher cost of living (such as New York or California), jobs will be lost.

And what do you base that on? Like I said Henry Ford gave his workers a raise because he knew that the increase would allow his own workers to buy cars. The fact is that more money in the hands of more people helps the economy grow. It creates demand. By increasing the minimum wage it fuels economic growth. Its pretty basic, how many things can a few people with buying power have vs many people with buying power.

What you said is that there are more jobs today than ever before because of the knowledge economy, and I agree. In a knowledge economy, you do not need industrial unions.

Thats not what I said. I said that Industrial unions are applicable not only to the manufacturing industry but also to the service industry. With the "information era" most of the job growth is in the service sector of the economy. Sorry if you had a hard time understanding that.

Airlines are unique in that while they provide a service and not a physical good to customers, essentially they are a heavy industry because of 1) large capital costs and 2) federal laws on cabotage, which lead to 3) high barriers to entry (entry at all is easy but entry to be a major airline is tough since you have to grow from the very beginning) and 4) high barriers to exit (witness UA and US still around).

So in other words they are perfect for unionization.

It took longer for the manufacturers to move overseas because they had spent a lot of money building these factories and didn't want to close them on a whim. The industrial unions eventually forced their hand, and now they are gone.

So are you saying that they should have agreed to work for 50cents an hour?

You keep throwing out the term "industrial Unions", maybe you should look up the definition of industrial union because you keep associating Industrial unions with manufacturing. The fact is there may have been craft unions at many manufacturers too. But you seem to think that Industrial Unions only apply to manufacturing.

 

[keeptheodds]

quote=,NewHampshire Black Bears Today, 12:12 AM

Gentlemen, Gentlemen, Save your breath and not waste it on a "NINCOMPOOP" like JS.

How in the HEL* can you argue with an Anti-Union IMBECILE, who thinks that Wal-Mart treats it's employees well, that minimum wage increases are BAD for the economy, That BUSH was elected "fair and Square", and (probably) thinks that EVERYTHING his Pastor tells him politically, from the pulpit is correct ????????

NH/BB's

Black Bear, some where in this forum I made a post about supply and demand. I recomend you find it and read it.

If you do not like the way a company treats you, then you quit. If you don't like the way it is run, you become a manager and change it. If you can't do that, you start your own buisness and run it the way you want. If you can't do none of the above, you live with it. If you can't live with it, go get you a bottle and cry in it.

No one forces anyone to go to Wal-Mart and apply for a job. No one forces you to accept that job if it is offerd to you. How much should one expect to get paid to buff floors, stock shelves and run a register? People take these jobs because they are uneducated. Then they blame the company because they can't buy a new playstation or live in a $350,000 house.

Black Bear, do you hold an A&P?
Do you have any college?
Why did you choose the aviation industry for your career?
How much did you expect to make working as a mechcanic?
Why did you apply for a job at Northwest?

I'm honestly trying to learn the union mentality here and I'm having a difficult time here because all I get is uneducated type insults. I thought maybe you could enlighten me.



WELL, BLACK BEAR?

 

[Hackman]

I will be happy to continue this conversation with you if you remove the personal attacks from your post.

[post="288577"][/post]​

Personal attacks? Saying your smart or blind is an attack?

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

quote=,NewHampshire Black Bears Today, 12:12 AM

Gentlemen, Gentlemen, Save your breath and not waste it on a "NINCOMPOOP" like JS.

How in the HEL* can you argue with an Anti-Union IMBECILE, who thinks that Wal-Mart treats it's employees well, that minimum wage increases are BAD for the economy, That BUSH was elected "fair and Square", and (probably) thinks that EVERYTHING his Pastor tells him politically, from the pulpit is correct ????????

NH/BB's

Black Bear, some where in this forum I made a post about supply and demand. I recomend you find it and read it.

If you do not like the way a company treats you, then you quit. If you don't like the way it is run, you become a manager and change it. If you can't do that, you start your own buisness and run it the way you want. If you can't do none of the above, you live with it. If you can't live with it, go get you a bottle and cry in it.

No one forces anyone to go to Wal-Mart and apply for a job. No one forces you to accept that job if it is offerd to you. How much should one expect to get paid to buff floors, stock shelves and run a register? People take these jobs because they are uneducated. Then they blame the company because they can't buy a new playstation or live in a $350,000 house.

Black Bear, do you hold an A&P?
Do you have any college?
Why did you choose the aviation industry for your career?
How much did you expect to make working as a mechcanic?
Why did you apply for a job at Northwest?

I'm honestly trying to learn the union mentality here and I'm having a difficult time here because all I get is uneducated type insults. I thought maybe you could enlighten me.

WELL, BLACK BEAR?

[post="288613"][/post]​

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No A+P.
No college
Selected AA because it was a high paying UNION JOB !!!!
"NA"
"NA"

NH/BB's

 

[keeptheodds]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No A+P.
No college
Selected AA because it was a high paying UNION JOB !!!!
"NA"
"NA"

Black Bear what are the chances of you sending me a resume and your current hourly rate? Feel free to change your name, the name of your employers, addresses and phone numbers but keep the format and job descriptions the same. Also how many other mechanics fit that same description?

 

[eolesen]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No A+P.
No college
Selected AA because it was a high paying UNION JOB !!!!
"NA"
"NA"

Black Bear what are the chances of you sending me a resume and your current hourly rate? Feel free to change your name, the name of your employers, addresses and phone numbers but keep the format and job descriptions the same. Also how many other mechanics fit that same description?

[post="288646"][/post]​

Bears is retired, so his hourly rate is $0, and he is self unemployed. By choice.

 

[MCI transplant]

Bears is retired, so his hourly rate is $0, and he is self unemployed.  By choice.

[post="288665"][/post]​

<_< Not that it was a problem, but Bear was never a AMT. I think he had more sence than that!!! Anyone that's an AMT today either has to be totally dedicated to aviation, or totally insane!!!!! I can say that because I've been one for 35+ years!!!!!!

 

[Red Tail Bear]

<_< Not that it was a problem, but Bear was never a AMT. I think he had more sence than that!!! Anyone that's an AMT today either has to be totally dedicated to aviation, or totally insane!!!!! I can say that because I've been one for 35+ years!!!!!!

[post="288692"][/post]​

Totally dedicated or totally insane. Which is it MCI? At any rate at least you'll be one of the fortunate ones to still have your pension intact when you retire. Just like NHBB's.

 

[MCI transplant]

Totally dedicated or totally insane. Which is it MCI? At any rate at least you'll be one of the fortunate ones to still have your pension intact when you retire. Just like NHBB's.  

[post="288713"][/post]​

<_< Sorry Red Tail----- But as far as a pension is concerned, your not saying a whole lot! I worked for TWA. Carl Ichan did a job on that retirement,(turned it over to the PBGC after having it frozen for close to10 years), and our retirement from aa starts in 2002! That's why I'm still working with 35+years of time!!!! (Notice I said "time", not "seniority"! But, that's another sad tale!!!) :down:
Signed:"Just anotherone of aa's redheaded stepchildren!!!!"