Bush agrees that a Iraq time table is needed.

[UAL_TECH]

JMHO, we are Fu($ed!!

As long as we continue to ‘crutch’ the military instead of going in there and ‘balls out’ taking control, we don’t have a chance. This would require a ‘draft’ that we all know is never even mentioned in our current political state. Given the fact that the ‘Meri-can’ people do not have the fortitude to reinstate the draft, we should pull out and not continue to waste ‘Meri-can’ lives.

Either we go in up to the crotch or pull out.

B) UT

 

[KCFlyer]

JMHO, we are Fu($ed!!

As long as we continue to ‘crutch’ the military instead of going in there and ‘balls out’ taking control, we don’t have a chance. This would require a ‘draft’ that we all know is never even mentioned in our current political state. Given the fact that the ‘Meri-can’ people do not have the fortitude to reinstate the draft, we should pull out and not continue to waste ‘Meri-can’ lives.

Either we go in up to the crotch or pull out.

B) UT

I agree with this. One reason we see so damn many "support our troops" ribbons on cars is because 99% of the American people sport them because they are gladder than hell that it's somebody ELSE's kid over there and not their own.

This war is the first one where the American people were not asked to sacrifice in some manner. Be it cutting back on gas, food, or other items, or sending their kids to the battlefield. We were asked to shop instead. If there were a draft...would we have been so gung ho to shift our attention from Osama to liberating Iraq? If I had a kid of age to serve, and they were called to fight those that attacked us - I would proudly watch them do their "duty". However, if they did that and then our leader unilaterally decided to liberate the Iraqi people by going after a guy who did NOTHING to the United States....then I'd pack their bags and buy their ticket to Canada.

We're in there now, and there really isn't any good way to get out. But I think that if Bush truly felt that the war he got us into is a "just war"....if he really feels that this is a global war on terrorism, then he'd move to have the draft reinstated and allow it to be fought with the manpower it needed, rather than going in as if it were just a playground bully beating up another bully. America is a great country...but we are in a war where the only Americans being asked to sacrifice anything are the "volunteer army" and their families. That shouldn't be the case.

 

[Garfield1966]

Not sure I agree. Military might is not the only thing that wins a war. Yes it is needed in most case but it is not the sole determining factor.

We did go in initially full tilt. Remember “Shock and Aweâ€￾? The problem is military might does not do well against sheer determination. Look at the Jewish resistance with the nazi’s. Look at Hammas and Israel. In the case of the Jews in WWII they were a small, poorly armed group going up against a huge military machine. For their size they were able to inflict huge damage. Moral of the story … never every under estimate the ability of determination and desperation. They are very powerful motivators. Yes the Jews were crushed but that was more for the lack of arms and people than for the ability of the nazi’s. Besides, the tactics used by the nazi would never be accepted today if used by a “civilizedâ€￾ society.

The reason that Bush I was able to succeed where his son is failing miserably is because Bush I was able to get a coalition together and only fought to do what was needed and agreed upon. That was to liberate Kuwait. Cheney did not get a coalition together. He went at it essentially alone. No one in the ME supports him and whether or not you like the players in the ME or not, they are needed if this is going to have any chance at working (I do not think it will).

You can argue till the cows come home that Bush I should have taken out Sadam when given he chance but whether it be because he (or his advisors knew it was coming) or just blind luck, he did not. I thought I remembered reading an article that implied that Bush I told his son not to do it but I guess even at that level of power, sons do not listen to their parents.

I have always wondered what would have happened had Cheney et al had children who had to serve on the front line with the rest of the boys and girls we send. I cannot help but think that we would not be having this discussion because I seriously doubt that Bush would send his girls off to fight.

And now with Gates not on board with the program that Cheney orchestrated I cannot help but dread the future of this fiasco.

 

[delldude]

Here's some backround on CP you'll probably acknowledge:

News story

More

Everyone blames Bush...I agree he is at the top,but when it hits the fan...he has to use things that were already in place.....does the new President no matter which party,have the time and wherewithall to examine every frigging department and policy that came before him?Honestly,I don't think so...So I think an honest person has to give some latitude here....

Like I said...State...many ex-Clinton fans.....hmmm,I guess no one would be there with an agenda against Bush...especially since he stole the election.

I see Tenet is now going to tell all,especially since he's cleared waivers with his pension and such....Oh....he's selling a book?....glad he has no visible agenda....don't suppose theres any ex-Clinton appointees at CIA seething over the bank robbery of an election?

Oh well...Bush has all these little things to foil his legacy and agenda....I just can't figure that anyone would want to make the guy look bad,can you?

Do you really think he's done impeachable deeds?
I don't.....even if he was Dem...I don't.

 

[KCFlyer]

dell...it's pretty well documented that when the attack was planned, the generals wanted a lot more men and would have settle for less "shock and awe". Rummy turned it down...we were a lean mean fighting machine. At least he thought we were. And arrogance, or stubborness, or whatever you want to call it, kept 'the plan' in place.

And I still maintain that all that Americans were asked by their leader to do was "go shopping". Oh yeah...and for the troops...we're going to extend your tours for a bit.

Are the terrorists bad....you betcha. But is our president stubborn as a mule....you betcha. If he was going to declare a "global war on terror" and take on the terrorists alone (okay so he had the support of Ghana and the Dominican Republic), then he damn sure should have declared the draft back in effect and fought this war. Of course...that might have slowed his plans a bit...although his big reason why we had to go in in March 2003 was because it was before the summer heat. Did he really think we'd win a "global war on terror" before summer 2003?

 

[Garfield1966]

Impeachable, no I do not think he has either. Then again, I do not think lying about sex with an intern is an impeachable offence either. Criminal maybe.

Every POTUS has to deal with the same situation. Why should Bush be special? Clinton had 8 years of Reagan and 4 years of Bush I to deal with. As for reviewing departments, that what you have staff for. Unfortunately, Bush more than others (if you believe all the reports) hires yes men more than most. No one was willing to tell him he was wrong or something needs fixing. Call me what you will but if I am sending troops out to war I am going to make damn sure the infrastructure to support them when they come back is top notch. That is just one example.

Cheney has been one of the worst things to happen to this country. He has divided this country like it has not been since Viet Nam. He has squandered billions of dollars on a fight that should not have been waged. He manipulated data to support his intentions and over 3,200 US soldiers have paid the ultimate price. Bush has stacked the courts with people who are judged on their corporate and religious views not their judicial ability. My guess is the history books will shred him. His legacy will live on, but not the one he had imagined.

At least he has guaranteed that there will not be another Bush in the White for generations to come if ever.

Hee Hee, I forgot about the summer heat thing. That was one of the funniest things I heard in a long time. Reminded me of Hitler and Russia. Get in and out before winter. That did not work so well either.

 

[UAL_TECH]

They hate us, the world hates us, and we hate ourselves.

Since we are too stupid to do the ‘right thing’ then we should pull out, leave a vacuum and (if we were smart) prepare for a war on our own turf.

Of course none of these things will happen and while we are concentrating on our division/indecisiveness in Iraq, our ‘GOV’ :wacko: is selling us (Meri-Cans) out through global in sourcing/outsourcing and blaming us for it all the while.

We deserve what we get :down:

B) UT

 

[Garfield1966]

That seems a bit harsh to say we hate our selves. I think we see our selves as more important than we actually are. From the 1900’s to maybe the 50’s or so we were probably the biggest player on the block. Were it not for our man power and ability to push out more planes, tanks etc than the axis powers could blow up, WWII would have come out quite different. While GB put an incredible fight (no thanks to us) they would not have been able to hold out with out our goods.

Fast forward to 2000 and we are no longer the only player. What’s more, we have not kept up with the rules of the game as it changes. We have a turn table with 45’s while the rest of the world has gone digital. Power, real power is no longer found in the barrel of a gun. It is found in 0’s and 1’s. It is found in creativity and the ability to think ahead. We are beholden to oil and the ME because we were too short sighted and to arrogant to see that all good things come to an end. The US will not be a world power for ever. History has taught us that only we failed to listen. The Romans, Greeks, Turks, UK all once great empires of the world….. gone. Pam Am, Eastern, American Steel … once world empires … gone. Instead of trying to make friends, build alliances, we have been the bully on the block. We had the world with us when we were hit by 9/11. Libya even offered to help. We had the perfect opportunity to be better but we chose to fight. The people wanted blood and the government gave it to them.

When we decide to take our government back, maybe we can change things.

 

[local 12 proud]

They hate us, the world hates us, and we hate ourselves.

Since we are too stupid to do the ‘right thing’ then we should pull out, leave a vacuum and (if we were smart) prepare for a war on our own turf.

Of course none of these things will happen and while we are concentrating on our division/indecisiveness in Iraq, our ‘GOV’ :wacko: is selling us (Meri-Cans) out through global in sourcing/outsourcing and blaming us for it all the while.

We deserve what we get :down:

B) UT

Yea, we might as well just abandon the ME all together let them
(Attempt) to take Israel and bomb each other along with the rest of the world back to the stone age.

Mahmoud Imanutjob is anxiously awaiting the soon return of the hidden Imam and in fact he thinks that he can hasten his return, I suspect when it comes time for heads to roll many will convert.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jh...4/16/do1609.xml

Hey Gar, get your prayer rug ready!

 

[delldude]

I think before Ahmineajeehadd gets too far down the pike of Nukedom....Israel will for sure do something and i'd like to think US would go it with them.....but I see Murtha with a M-1 carbine with flowers in the barrel and sweet Nancy eating figs......what a nightmare....
God forbid we turn our back to Israel......but this new clan will do as they please without regard to any one thing.

Little carpet ride anyone?

 

[local 12 proud]

I think before Ahmineajeehadd gets too far down the pike of Nukedom....Israel will for sure do something and i'd like to think US would go it with them.....

Not gonna happen with a lib in charge!

The best they will come up with is a starbucks and a set down with the enemy while sporting a hijab.

I see Murtha with a M-1 carbine with flowers in the barrel and sweet Nancy eating figs......what a nightmare....

It's been done before...

God forbid we turn our back to Israel......but this new clan will do as they please without regard to any one thing.

Its a stumbling block, the world will once again abandon the Jews, count on it!

 

[Garfield1966]

You guys crack me up.

The US is having to stretch the tours as it is because they do not have the man power to sustain what they have already started and you think we are going to play footsies with Iran? We don’t have the hardware to do jack squat. An air campaign will just piss them off then who knows what will happen. The time for action was decades ago. Instead of supporting the Shaw, we should have helped support someone who had popular support but no, the US supports an #### and now we wonder why they are pissed at us. Good grief.

Setting off a nuke in Israel will not do Iran any good. While the religious zealots might be in the lime light, there is far too much money (read as "real power") at stake. Those who have fortunes at stake will more than likely keep a close eye on the nut cases.

The US will make damn sure that Israel does not hit Iran. From what I hear, they do not have the logistical capability to hit them any way. Israel does not have any long range bombers, they have no refueling bases or a/c that can handle it. And I am pretty sure Israel is not interested in the entire ME blowing up. They will defend their boarders but I doubt they will venture out to start a fight. Too much at stake.

 

[delldude]

Shalom my friend

More

In July 1990, Steve Fetter, a physicist at the University of Maryland, calculated the payload and range parameters of the Shavit, based on data about the two Offeq launches provided in the press. He found that if the Shavit were deployed as a ballistic missile it could deliver a 775-kg payload a distance of 4,000 km, putting the whole of the Middle East (and a large part of the former Soviet Union) within striking distance.

On February 1, 2007, President Chirac of France commented on the Nuclear ambitions of Iran, hinting on possible nuclear countermeasures from Israel:
Where will it drop it, this bomb? On Israel? It would not have gone 200 metres into the atmosphere before Tehran would be razed

 

[Gilding the Lily]

Bush's democracy being spread across all of Iraq.


"Iraq's top Sunni official has set a deadline of next week for pulling his entire bloc out of the government -- a potentially devastating blow to reconciliation efforts within Iraq. He also said he turned down an offer by President Bush to visit Washington until he can count more fully on U.S. help."

"He said if key amendments to the Iraq Constitution are not made by May 15, he will step down and pull his 44 Sunni politicians out of the 275-member Iraqi parliament."

"Specifically, he wants guarantees in the constitution that the country won't be split into Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish federal states that he says will disadvantage Sunnis."

 

[delldude]

Working together here?

With sectarian divisions fueling violence in Iraq, Sunnis and Shiites in the U.S. are increasingly wary of a spillover effect. In one public example, leaders from both traditions have launched "Intra-faith Code of Honor" campaigns in three cities with major Muslim populations.
So far, 20 Sunni and Shiite leaders in Southern California have signed the first such code. The document denounces "takfir" — the labeling of another Muslim as a nonbeliever — forbids hateful speech about revered figures and urges debates at the scholarly level, not the street level.

Similar agreements are expected to be completed this month in Detroit and Washington, D.C.