Branson wants to try and sway Dallas for DAL gates

[WorldTraveler]

I presume the "we" you refer to is DL.

DL IS at DAL but they were leasing gates from AA who just signed its gates over to Virgin.

I presume the terms of the lease transfer don't take effect until Oct 13, 2014 or so but after that date, DL is SOL unless they find another way to get into DAL.

So, from the perspective of 5 months down the road, DL is on the outside looking in - which is exactly the position they want to be seen in so that they can argue that they can be accommodated.

Whether DL gains access via DAL's accommodation policies or via pressure on ExpressJet, DL does have options to make sure it ISN'T left on the outside looking in after Oct 14.

 

[eolesen]

You're assuming VX's sublease cancels out DL's existing sublease?...

It might be a safe assumption, but nobody has come right out and said how the VX sublease directly impacts DL or Seaport's EAS services.

 

[swamt]

I found the bet. It's now invalid, since it was predicated on coming down to only DL and WN being interested in the gates.

http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/56733-wn-to-add-15-new-cities-from-dal/page-2#entry1059511
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/56733-wn-to-add-15-new-cities-from-dal/page-2#entry1059712

Lots of other great claims in the multitude of DAL threads which didn't come to pass... maybe someday I'll timeline them.

Thank you very much E.  The bet was in fact for the 2 divested gates at LF.  NOT if Delta will stay or leave LF.  Most all of us out  here have stated that Delta will stay it's just a matter of what gates they will be operating out of.   And like I have posted just recently, once the bidding came in from VA, then I said that the bet between myself and WT was being affected.  And it all played out pretty much as I said it would if certain things happened.  The only thing that did not play out was if Spirit was to get involved in the bidding for the gates.  Again E, thx for taking the time, I was actually going to spend some more time on it tonight.
 

which is what I said.

the only claim that matters at this point is whether DL will get into DAL... and I still stand by that they will.

DL's inventory does not appear to have been touched. Someone needs to tell them they aren't going to DAL if that is the case.

Delta is already in DAL.  You really seem to be confused.  Which BTW; I have some questions for you as I furthered my research this morning and found some interesting quotes and facts.  
If you go to LF history wiki., then you will scroll down to carriers providing service for the airport.  It listed that Delta is removing it's DAL to ATL on Oct 12th.  Are they pulling the flight do to the W/A going away and the increased comp. from SWA as well as poss. VA?  Or are they pulling out to relocate all their flights out of Dal and move them over to DFW as one article stated that Delta will do.  But the same article said that Delta would look at future options to grow at LF?  It was a little confusing between the 2 different articles and just wondering if you know anything about it.  
As far as our bet, as E said, it is scratched as others came in to bid and changed the entire original bet format.  Now for future talks, I too hope Delta stays at LF, but I will still say they will have to share gates with UAL, EJ or VA in order to stay at LF.  Would you care to take on another wager for this one?  I am...

 

[eolesen]

DL is still showing the DAL-ATL service available for sale, so I'm not sure I'd put a lot of confidence in a Wiki article just yet...

 

[swamt]

E is correct, you (WT) are just assuming Delta is out at LF because VA got the gates.  If that were true then why in the world are the tickets for sale from Delta still good?   C'mon man.   And when you made your bets that YOU claim were that Delta would remain at LF and your most recent post that Delta is now trying to work it's way back into LF "MAKES NO FREAKIN SENCE"  You are once again starting to lose it WT, step back, take a deep breath, relax, take a drink and collect your thoughts, then post...

 

[swamt]

My bad, it is Delta connection canceling the Atl flights, and it looks like they are passing them onto Delta Airlines on the 13th.  Here's the info:
 

Airlines

Destinations

Terminal

Delta Air Lines

Atlanta (begins October 13, 2014)

1

Delta Connection

Atlanta (ends October 12, 2014), Detroit (begins October 13, 2014), Los Angeles (begins October 13, 2014), Minneapolis/St. Paul (begins October 13, 2014),[48] New York-LaGuardia (begins October 13, 2014)

1

SeaPort Airlines

El Dorado, Hot Springs

1

Southwest Airlines

Albuquerque, Amarillo, Atlanta (begins November 2, 2014), Austin, Baltimore (begins October 13, 2014), Birmingham (AL), Branson (ends June 7, 2014),[49] Chicago Midway (begins October 13, 2014), Denver (begins October 13, 2014), El Paso, Fort Lauderdale (begins November 2, 2014), Harlingen(ends June 6, 2014), Houston-Hobby, Kansas City, Las Vegas (begins October 13, 2014), Little Rock, Los Angeles (begins November 2, 2014), Lubbock,Midland/Odessa, Nashville (begins November 2, 2014), New Orleans, New York-LaGuardia (begins November 2, 2014), Oklahoma City, Orange County(begins November 2, 2014), Orlando (begins October 13, 2014), Phoenix (begins November 2, 2014), St. Louis, San Antonio, San Diego (begins November 2, 2014), Tampa (begins November 2, 2014), Tulsa, Washington-National (begins November 2, 2014), Wichita

2

United Express

Houston-Intercontinental

1

Virgin America

Los Angeles (begins October 13, 2014), New York-LaGuardia (begins October 28, 2014), San Francisco (begins October 13, 2014), Washington-National(begins October 13, 2014) [50]

2

Top destinations[SIZE=small][[/SIZE]edit]

 

[WorldTraveler]

plz tell me you don't use Wiki as any sort of reliable source of information.

There might be some interesting information and some of it us documented with outside sources but just like the USAToday article, some one has jumped to the conclusion that DL would have to stop service.

BTW, where are the schedules for all of the flights which you quote as saying will start as a specific date? those destinations are no more than a press release which is the same thing that DL released.

as for the bet, if you want to declare victory, I have no problems conceding and letting you at least have the consolation of winning the bet. I'm still not sure how you can argue that you won if WN didn't get any further access and neither has DL.

Like so many things, including WN's approach to these two gates, your attitude seems to be "if I can't win, I don't want anyone else to either."

I have said from the beginning and will continue to say that I want WN to win at DAL and believe they can. Sure they would like more gates and they will have to do some major chopping of their current inside the perimeter Wright schedules in order to accommodate enough growth but they can make it work.

Life is full of scarce resources. Carriers at the slot controlled airports have had to live with real constraints for years. AA and UA operated hubs at ORD under slot controls for years. NYC and WAS are hubs to airlines. DL carries 10% connecting traffic at LGA so they can maximize the use of their slots which amount to half of the slots at the airport and there is still a perimeter rule in effect for LGA.

WN can make DAL work and I want them to.

As for whether DL's sublease is being accommodated or not, I would be very surprised but DL's sublease is for far less access than what they are seeking now.

I don't know how DL will make it work but I am absolutely certain that DL knew what it was getting into when it threw its hat into the ring to serve DAL post Wright, intends to stick it out and fight for the right to be there just as it is at HOU and MDW, and has multiple backup plans to serve the markets involved as well as expand in Texas as a result of the Wright changes, whether they get into DAL at the levels they want or not.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

So, from the perspective of 5 months down the road, DL is on the outside looking in - which is exactly the position they want to be seen in so that they can argue that they can be accommodated.

Whether DL gains access via DAL's accommodation policies or via pressure on ExpressJet, DL does have options to make sure it ISN'T left on the outside looking in after Oct 14.

Nice spin.  Actually, no, what you've written here is pathetic!
BTW:  DL will not magically become a new entrant on Oct. 14

 

[WorldTraveler]

yet somehow DL has not pulled its flights from DAL which means either they believe they can argue the point about winning access or that they have an alternate plan which might include putting pressure on ExpressJet.

whatever the reason, DL is not throwing in the towel.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

whatever the reason, DL is not throwing in the towel.

Ofcourse, but I'm pretty sure the position they are in now is certainly not the position they'd love to be in.

 

[WorldTraveler]

the only carrier that is in the position they want at DAL is Virgin. WN wants to have the capacity to add more than they can add. WN pulled out all of the stops to get into those gates - which they absolutely should have done - but they didn't get the extra two gates. Every company has to make tough appeals on major issues; sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Given that WN still has the ability to add way more longhaul domestic service that DAL has seen in decades, there is huge upside for WN.

The chances are really quite high that DL will be able to serve DAL to at least some degree. The question is how much they will be able to serve. Like WN, DL should continue to fight and they appear to be doing just that.

 

[FWAAA]

if WN has a fixed schedule for how far in advance they normally publish their schedules, how is it subject to change?

The fall of Wright is EXACTLY five months away.

Is WN's practice only to publish schedules ONLY FIVE months in advance?

I'm stunned that someone with their finger on the pulse of the industry didn't know this basic fact.   
 

Yep. Anyone who has followed WN for longer than a few months would know that already...

It started out as a limitation of their archaic PSS, and they've chosen to hold onto the practice (even though Amadeus gives them the ability to publish 11 months out). They see it as advantage in that they don't tip their hand quite as early as other airlines seem to.

"Dates subject to change" is an escape clause in case they need to hold off a day or three for unforseen reasons.

I have to assume that at no time in the past 40+ years of WN's existence has WT bought a ticket on Southwest.   He so desperately wants to draw conclusions that support his narrative (that WN's "failure" to publish its schedule beyond October even though it's already May somehow gives us insight into WN's thinking about the two gates at DAL) that he reveals his lack of knowledge about the industry.   Ouch.   
 

so, when was last year's fall schedule loaded? and the year before?

I certainly haven't memorized WN's schedule release schedule but less than 5 months before departure seems to me to be less than usual but perhaps you can share details that would show otherwise.

BTW, every other legacy airline CRS/GDS loads schedules 11 months out +/- a week or two.

Talk about opening your mouth and filling everyone in on your ignorance - Not only are you ignorant of such a basic fact about the nation's biggest domestic carrier but then you argue the point.   Wow.   

 

[WorldTraveler]

you clearly seem to be transferring your frustration with the reality of AA's competitive situation on the NYC thread to this one.

Add in that the chances are really high that DL will gain an advantage in the N. Texas market which AA walked away from - the ability to serve two airports - and I can clearly see why you are frustrated.

The fact remains that DL isn't walking away from its intent to serve both Dallas airports just as it does in Chicago and Houston. I've laid out the reasons why DL serves all of the major airports in multi-airport cities, even if AMR's creditors and AA/US mgmt. felt it was ok to walk away from DAL in order to get their merger approved.

As to the specifics of when WN publishes their schedules, the only point is that the legacy carriers ALL publish their schedules based on the ability of their res systems, not when the company decides they want to start selling seats. It is the same number of days in advance, regardless of the season or market. No one in their right mind who isn't wedded to WN would bother to try to keep up with the exact dates on which WN will publish their schedule.

Your assumptions also are dead wrong. I have indeed bought tickets on WN.

To make such wild assumptions and be so wrong. Ouch.

 

[swamt]

I am not trying to say I won the bet WT.  As already explained by others than just me, our original bet was between SWA and Delta only. Once VA moved into the bidding, that changed the bet.  And as stated, I said now that VA was involved that Delta had no chance what-so-ever of getting the 2 gates being divested by AA.  If you wanna do a continuation of betting, I am willing to make a friendly wager that IF, Delta remains at LF after this is all said and done, it WILL be from one of or the two gates being leased by UAL from EJ OR they will be out of the gates VA just won in the bids.  It will not be out of the 16  one or more gates that SWA will be operating from.  I have said this from the very beginning, are you willing to to accept that wager?  I would tend to doubt you will as even you have started to accept that Delta could work something out with EJ's gates.   Or will Delta simply fold and transfer their flights over to DFW?
 
There are 3 airlines that loss out in this transaction.  SWA loss the ability to grow more, and add 20+ flights.  Delta loss the ability to grow, and add 16-18 flights.  AA loss out, of adding any flights at LF.  The ONLY clear winner in the divested gate transaction is VA.  Not really adding any new flights, but moving them eventually from DFW over to LF and able to do said flights at a much lower cost to the airline there by improving their bottom line.  Not only in landing and takeoff fees, but in fuel cost and burn from gates to runway, and runway to gates, not to mention the time to do the same.  There are many other cost involved that will help their bottom line just by simply transfering those flights from DFW to LF.  
 
My next prediction is a super duper fare war between SWA and VA.  SWA did it when AA tried to come back to LF, I am confident it will happen again.  Now, the end result of said fare war, I do not know.  Sir Branson has some really deep pockets.  Some rumors are flying on the hangar floor that SWA will try to run VA off somehow and try to regain the 2 gates to add flights at a later date sometime, mind you, this is just shop talk on the floor, I am not saying this is what SWA is going to do.  
 
WT, I will ask you directly,  do you have any info what-so-ever that Delta is in talks with other owners and leases at LF to maintain flights out of LF?  Just curious as I have not seen or read anything about Delta's fate at LF.  since they were leasing the 2 gates in question, just thought we would have read something about acomendating Delta by now...

 

[does this plane go to paris]

It's interesting all of this talk about loading schedules is such an issue.  It's been my experience that the only one's that are concerned about booking a seat 11 months out are customers that trying to cash in miles for free seats.
 
There is absolutely no scientific procedure in the little experiment that I did but I looked at booking on Delta from various cities.  From ATL to LHR round-trip 11 months out, the only seats I saw were the seats that Delta blocks for crew seating and that was about it.  I also looked at the same flights, 6 months from now and they sold something like 10 seats.  But I have to wonder how many of those seats are not really sold but Sky Miles cashed in.  Tried the same thing on JFK to LAX round-trip and SEA to ATL.  In each case it wasn't like the planes are sold out and that Delta is counting their money.  I believe that the most seats I saw that were blocked was 15 seats on the SEA to ATL flight.
 
If Airlines are chasing the business customer, do they know 11 months out they need to fly for a meeting?  Airlines know that the business customer doesn't know until the last minute and charges the most, so why does it matter if airline X chooses to publish their schedules 11 months out or 3 months out?