August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[luvthe9]

Bull... Chicken little. The retro rates if ever paid go up on Jan 1. Keep up the fiction FUD.

No the rate will not go up, your retro pay will still be based on 167 not 181, try to pay attention, but the APA boys will get 181 you will not. (if POR is not signed this year)

 

[EastUS1]

I was really just trying to communicate with the lowest common denominator on the forum. As you were.

Fully understood.

 

[traderjake]

Your right, with Gary in there I agree, barely a 1 in 3 chance, hey you were stupind enough to vote for him

I make my share of typing mistakes but I try to be extra careful when I call someone "stupind".

You'll be happy to hear I wasn't "stupind" enough to vote for Gary, I voted for the West guys twice.

If I had known that Bill McKee had the DOJ connections to increase the odds of the merger going through I would have voted for him. 😀

 

[im back..!!]

No the rate will not go up, your retro pay will still be based on 167 not 181, try to pay attention, but the APA boys will get 181 you will not. (if POR is not signed this year)

Can you explain that, im not doubting you, i just dont recall reading anything like that?

Was that a clause in the MOU?

 

[Res Judicata]

Your right, with Gary in there I agree, barely a 1 in 3 chance, hey you were stupind enough to vote for him. by the way it's was approx 290 left on the table not 400, but whose counting..

What do you care about money? You're head cheerleader for the band of fking idiots that thus far, have left one 1000 MILLION dollars on the table... That's how much a billion lost dollars is. 290? That's just KFC money. LOL!!!

 

[flyingskier]

Okay, let me ask you, on the stand alone list, how many active east pilots were below your seniority status in September 2005 vs. today? Is the difference about 1400 pilots/positions? Did you gain anything when previously inactivated pilots were activated junior to you?

The west argued for the snap shot in time approach to the SLI. What has happened since 2005 proves why this approach does not work. The snap shot for the east was at the very worst possible time, giving the west a huge advantage going in to the SLI. To prove my point, since 2005 I have almost 1000 pilots below me, and I was furloughed in 2005. How many do you have below you since 2005? Probably less then you did when the merger was announced... The 1000 below me today is not fair to you and the snap shot in time approach used by the west and the arbitrator are not fair to the east. The east is benefiting from what we brought to the merged company and due to the unbalanced arbitration award, the west is stuck with what they brought. Unfortunately, due to such an unbalanced award the east has had no choice but to keep the west frozen in their snap shot in time...

Skier

 

[luvthe9]

What do you care about money? You're head cheerleader for the band of fking idiots that thus far, have left one 1000 MILLION dollars on the table... That's how much a billion lost dollars is. 290? That's just KFC money. LOL!!!

I don't, just thought you might want to know what your union is hiding. I would want to know why the membership was not told back in late Sept. about this.

 

[luvthe9]

Can you explain that, im not doubting you, i just dont recall reading anything like that?

Was that a clause in the MOU?

From what I understand, no clause to read, when the company was asked that was there answer.

 

[Res Judicata]

I don't, just thought you might want to know what your union is hiding. I would want to know why the membership was not told back in late Sept. about this.

Oh I see, altruism. Do you care that "our" lawyer Scumanski outright lied to the West on multiple occasions? Is that why "our" lawyer refused to speak under oath?

 

[luvthe9]

Oh I see, altruism. Do you care that "our" lawyer Scumanski outright lied to the West on multiple occasions? Is that why "our" lawyer refused to speak under oath?

Sure sorry about your NIC, best to get over it now, go out tonight and have a good time, I sure am. I would recommend the family feast at KFC for you.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The west argued for the snap shot in time approach to the SLI. What has happened since 2005 proves why this approach does not work. The snap shot for the east was at the very worst possible time, giving the west a huge advantage going in to the SLI. To prove my point, since 2005 I have almost 1000 pilots below me, and I was furloughed in 2005. How many do you have below you since 2005? Probably less then you did when the merger was announced... The 1000 below me today is not fair to you and the snap shot in time approach used by the west and the arbitrator are not fair to the east. The east is benefiting from what we brought to the merged company and due to the unbalanced arbitration award, the west is stuck with what they brought. Unfortunately, due to such an unbalanced award the east has had no choice but to keep the west frozen in their snap shot in time...

Skier

Of course it happened at the worst possible time for the east. Two bankruptcies in five years and the latter of the two had the legacy US operations on the doorstep of liquidation. That's not a dig or a taunt just the facts of the situation. The arbitrator did what he thought was the most fair method of integration given the facts of the two companies and the two seniority lists.

It really doesn't matter what any of us think is fair because that is not an objective or quantifiable measurement. What matters is that the arbitrator followed the process and issued a binding award that by all intents was to be the last and final word on the matter. What the east has done since then cannot be justified, except that as I mentioned last night if you wanted to sue ALPA to see if it truly did violate the TA and the merger policy. If that had happened and the east won some concessions on the NIC, I would fully support that, but that's not what happened, and by electing USAPA and stripping the west of separate representation, a mess was created the likes of which no one has ever seen before and certainly wasn't anticipated by anyone, even I dare say the founders of USAPA.

All that being said, where do you believe you should have been placed on a combined seniority list relative to an active west pilot?

 

[Reed Richards]

It really doesn't matter what any of us think is fair because that is not an objective or quantifiable measurement. What matters is that the arbitrator followed the process and issued a binding award that by all intents was to be the last and final word on the matter.

Followed the process, other than granting a disgusting and vindictive windfall, counter to ALPA policy. And it sure has heck did, and does matter "what we think." After seven years, no implemtation of the award, and a new union our thoughts continue to turn into actions. RR

 

[CallawayGolf]

Followed the process, other than granting a disgusting and vindictive windfall, counter to ALPA policy. And it sure has heck did, and does matter "what we think." After seven years, no implemtation of the award, and a new union our thoughts continue to turn into actions. RR

Again with the windfall myth? A windfall is a sudden, unexpected gain which would not have happened in 2007 and it wouldn't apply if it was implemented now. There was nothing sudden about it. There was nothing unexpected about it anymore so that going with a DOH scheme that would have allowed furloughed east pilots to displace active west captains. Most importantly, it's not a windfall to retain the ability to hold the same seat and position you held before the SLI. Finally it doesn't matter what an individual pilot might think, it really matters what a federal judge thinks about the NIC. If she or they decide to vacate the arbitrated award it will be vacated; if they decide to compel USAPA by injunction to use the NIC, then it will be the NIC.

 

[snapthis]

Again with the windfall myth? A windfall is a sudden, unexpected gain which would not have happened in 2007 and it wouldn't apply if it was implemented now. There was nothing sudden about it. There was nothing unexpected about it anymore so that going with a DOH scheme that would have allowed furloughed east pilots to displace active west captains. Most importantly, it's not a windfall to retain the ability to hold the same seat and position you held before the SLI. Finally it doesn't matter what an individual pilot might think, it really matters what a federal judge thinks about the NIC. If she or they decide to vacate the arbitrated award it will be vacated; if they decide to compel USAPA by injunction to use the NIC, then it will be the NIC.

Actually there was windfall which was in 2005.

It starts with Dean Colello.

 

[Barrister]

The west argued for the snap shot in time approach to the SLI. What has happened since 2005 proves why this approach does not work. The snap shot for the east was at the very worst possible time, giving the west a huge advantage going in to the SLI. To prove my point, since 2005 I have almost 1000 pilots below me, and I was furloughed in 2005. How many do you have below you since 2005? Probably less then you did when the merger was announced... The 1000 below me today is not fair to you and the snap shot in time approach used by the west and the arbitrator are not fair to the east. The east is benefiting from what we brought to the merged company and due to the unbalanced arbitration award, the west is stuck with what they brought. Unfortunately, due to such an unbalanced award the east has had no choice but to keep the west frozen in their snap shot in time...

Skier

This is a great post. It showed where the true value was in this merger....the upside for U if you will. Something the NIC never considered. If you Westies don't realize from the UAL/CO merger what is REALLY thought of the NIC then you are in serious denial. It was a classic....almost Perry Mason moment....oh wait.....most of you Westies don't even know who that is...anyway...when Hashi testified that he was 1400 numbers senior to himself......it is my sincere hope that Silver was paying attention at that precise moment......and are you truly serious that you Westies voted for the MOU thinking that it triggered the NIC but didn't know it was seniority neutral......YGTBSM.......soooooo lets go into the next merger with longevity as the primary consideration....got any problems with that??????......NICDOA.....NPJB