August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Phoenix]

Okay, by request I have reviewed to language of the MOU regarding...

Please review the MOU and provide your analysis of the rights and responsibilities of AOL as they are enumerated in the negotiated MOU?

...and how do they change in the event of single carrier status?

 

[end_of_alpa]

USAPA goes away at the single carrier status

M/B goes away if the parties reach an agreement before the required arbitration date kicks in; otherwise it stays in place.

Where any or all US pilots go on the combined seniority list is yet to be determined because:
a. The Seniority Protocol agreement has yet to be consummated
b. The new Merger Transition Agreement has yet to be consummated
c. The negotiation phase that precedes M/B has yet to commence
d. Silver has yet to rule on the DFR-II seniority question
e. The Ninth has yet to rule on the DJ appeal

Any one of these future actions could and likely will have an impact on the final result that is produce and ratified into a JCBA.

All true. Don't forget the DOJ and the companies have to duke it out in court or they settle. So what's you're point? The future has yet to be written? Duh.

But that was NOT what we were discussing. I thought WE were discussing just the technical aspects of MOU II. When is the next asteroid going to hit the planet? Oh which planet. What is the definition of a planet? Which solar system, etc. etc.

 

[CallawayGolf]

All true. Don't forget the DOJ and the companies have to duke it out in court or they settle. So what's you're point? The future has yet to be written? Duh.

But that was NOT what we were discussing. I thought WE were discussing just the technical aspects of MOU II. When is the next asteroid going to hit the planet? Oh which planet. What is the definition of a planet? Which solar system, etc. etc.

--------------------------------
And I thought we were discussing the role USAPA would play subsequent to single carrier status being granted, but the SLI process not-yet being completed. By my reading, APA could easily become the exclusive bargaining agent well before a M/B arbitration process commences or is finalized. You claimed the MOU was written to ensure that USAPA could continue to separately represent LCC pilots in the SLI even if APA was the exclusive CBA. I looked for that provision and found nothing that expressly supported such a claim. I did find that the MOU is but just an initial stepping stone agreement that does not get the pilots from pre-merger agreement to JCBA; instead it gets the pilots from pre-merger agreement (understanding) to a formal MTA which also includes a Seniority Integration Protocol, both of which will direct and control the parties working towards a JCBA with a fully integrated seniority list. So, unless USAPA has a specific clause in the MTA or the Protocol agreements, then I see no basis for their survival past single carrier status. But that's just me.

 

[algflyr]

CallawayGolf,
 
If the APA becomes the Bargaining Agent of the merger company, which I'm sure nobody doubts will happen, then all pilots, AMR and US Aiways, will be APA members. However, as far as finishing the SLI, USAPA will still represent the US Airways pilots until the SLI is finished.  After all, that's the whole reason M/B can into existence.
 
Think about it, if single carrier is determined and APA becomes the agent for ALL pilots, then there would be no need for M/B anymore, there would only be one union, not two, which required the M/B in the first place. The APA could then just order the list how they want. They could just staple the entire US Airways pilots under theirs. Who would be able to fight that. Only the APA would be in charge...
 
So to prevent this, the M/B legislation was introduced to prevent stapling when merging groups from different unions.

 

[algflyr]

Forum messed up. Was quoting things I wasn't saying. Had to go to IE to post and edit...

 

[Reed Richards]

End of Alpa already gave the best reply, but I will chime in also. I have been having issues with the site, sorry for the late post.

"The participants in this negotiation/arbitration process are the affected employee groups, and the carrier or carriers involved. The interests of unionized employee groups are represented by their union, while interests of nonunionized employee groups may be represented by employee committees or by the carrier."

Note the word “participants.” The participants are NAMED in the MOU. The law says those parties (and of course I do not mean the UCC) will be in the room. APA, AMR, USAPA, US Airways. In the room and negotiating for their members. USAPA will not go away in this process, until the final argument is made in M/B. I would argue that if there are future arguments as to the clarification and implantation of Conditions and Restrictions, USAPA might have a seat even years in the future.

And here is another gem from the below link: “Internal Union Merger Policy. Where one union represented both employee groups affected by a transaction prior to a merger, the CAB held that a carrier's acceptance of an integrated seniority list produced pursuant to that union's internal merger policy satisfied the obligations under Section 3. The McCaskill-Bond statute explicitly provides that the union's internal policy applies in this circumstance.”

http://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/x/164186/Aviation/Seniority+Integration+And+The+MccaskillBond+Statute

You can find this same logic in many of the legal analysis articles, it’s all over the internet . In fact, other than in Marty’s pleas I have been unable to find logic to the contrary. The MOU makes it crystal clear WHO the parties are, and almost all of our voting pilots in PHX agreed with that premise by saying “Yes.” (Note..the West Class is NOT a party to the M/B process laid out in the MOU.)

There are hundreds of links and talking papers like this one the internet concerning M/B. Enough of the lunacy here. Does anyone really think that M/B would allow the surviving union to "take over" the negotiations for the group they are in mediation/arbitration with? Give me a break. This recent warped logic here is just about as stupid as thinking the West Class legally gets a seat at ANY negotiating table. They only exist as a class to sue us, they are NOT a separate, much less elected bargaining agent. RR

 

[end_of_alpa]

End of Alpa already gave the best reply, but I will chime in also. I have been having issues with the site, sorry for the late post.

"The participants in this negotiation/arbitration process are the affected employee groups, and the carrier or carriers involved. The interests of unionized employee groups are represented by their union, while interests of nonunionized employee groups may be represented by employee committees or by the carrier."

Note the word “participants.” The participants are NAMED in the MOU. The law says those parties (and of course I do not mean the UCC) will be in the room. APA, AMR, USAPA, US Airways. In the room and negotiating for their members. USAPA will not go away in this process, until the final argument is made in M/B. I would argue that if there are future arguments as to the clarification and implantation of Conditions and Restrictions, USAPA might have a seat even years in the future.

And here is another gem from the below link: “Internal Union Merger Policy. Where one union represented both employee groups affected by a transaction prior to a merger, the CAB held that a carrier's acceptance of an integrated seniority list produced pursuant to that union's internal merger policy satisfied the obligations under Section 3. The McCaskill-Bond statute explicitly provides that the union's internal policy applies in this circumstance.”

http://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/x/164186/Aviation/Seniority+Integration+And+The+MccaskillBond+Statute

You can find this same logic in many of the legal analysis articles, it’s all over the internet . In fact, other than in Marty’s pleas I have been unable to find logic to the contrary. The MOU makes it crystal clear WHO the parties are, and almost all of our voting pilots in PHX agreed with that premise by saying “Yes.” (Note..the West Class is NOT a party to the M/B process laid out in the MOU.)

There are hundreds of links and talking papers like this one the internet concerning M/B. Enough of the lunacy here. Does anyone really think that M/B would allow the surviving union to "take over" the negotiations for the group they are in mediation/arbitration with? Give me a break. This recent warped logic here is just about as stupid as thinking the West Class legally gets a seat at ANY negotiating table. They only exist as a class to sue us, they are NOT a separate, much less elected bargaining agent. RR

Forget it. Calloway is just trying to make HIS point which is......well, gibberish. He knows full well that AMR, US Airways, APA are the other three parties. Just press on with life.

 

[luvthe9]

Yes, it does explain a lot. Not only is she married to a pilot who was negotiating (representing) the AWA ALPA, I noticed that one of her contacts on the list is none other than Bill Pollock. Small world, eh? I suppose Bill made more money than we realize. breeze

He is still hiring compliant pilots for Doug Parker. The beat goes on.

 

[Phoenix]

End of Alpa already gave the best reply, but I will chime in also.... RR

what is to prevent APA from absorbing all the pilots, using their own SLI scheme to merge us all, and then ignore any previous SLI method belonging to the previous union?

Isn't that exactly what USAPA did?

Hint: no it's not. Can you guess how its different?

 

[EastUS1]

"But that was NOT what we were discussing. I thought WE were discussing just the technical aspects of MOU II. When is the next asteroid going to hit the planet? Oh which planet. What is the definition of a planet? Which solar system, etc. etc."

 
Beyond just the boundaries of the MOU; those types of discussions would be equally well-suited to "snapshots-in-time" and of course "career expectations".
 
Oh well. This has all been good for lifetime laughs, just from some greedy fool trying to argue "logically" for magically becoming "13 or 1400 numbers" senior to himself alone, much less watching the wriggling of all who'd ever even try to support such utter insanity....Most especially whenever the term "earn" comes into play.
 
Perhaps the next crop of "Integrity Matters" T-shirts should be issued with "I just want to become 13 or 1400 numbers senior to myself" on their back sides. There'd at least be some degree of truth-in-advertising then.

 

[EastUS1]

He is still hiring compliant pilots for Doug Parker. The beat goes on.

 
 
Be fair here sir! If a person went to AWA in '87; they were not only "compliant" but were clearly unhireable elsewhere, even during that time when "everyone" was hiring.....Just sayin'....Well, unless they felt some religious-level need to work in PHX, receive virtually no pay, no pension, no respect and..umm...well...(searching for reasons here)...perhaps just needed some commercial currency hours logged, in order to at least hopefully move on to better things?

 

[EastUS1]

On a slightly different tack, here is why the pilot profession will continue to debase its ranks.....
Here are two YouTube videos that are very well produced and worth a look."

 
Excellent post. So long as corporations can write their own bankruptcy laws (which they do, by way of their owned-and-operated-little-politicians ratifying bills the corporate goons actually wrote for them) little to nothing will change to favor labor in this country. The only defenses must be provided by labor groups themselves....and having pwecious widdle "spartans" ("should I turn them in?") along for the ride bodes no one well here.

 

[EastUS1]

Res Judicata, on 26 October 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

APA earned it. YOU DID NOT. Typical scab entitlement."
 
 

Moi: "earned it. YOU DID NOT." Umm...OK then.  Would you care to feebly attempt even the slightest, however farcical explanation of how  Mr. Iranpour "earned" the following?  "I'm somewhere around 13 or 1400 numbers senior to myself on the Nicolau Award,"  AFSHIN IRANPOUR

This oughta' be a good chuckle. How does anyone ever, umm..."earn"..."around 13 or 1400 numbers senior to myself.."...?
 
I'm still breathlessly awaiting some/ANY predictably erudite and logically devastating response here Res: "How does anyone ever, umm..."earn"..."around 13 or 1400 numbers senior to myself.."?  What's the trouble? Has nothing you presumably obtained via all those august and "rather exclusive private"...umm..."educational institutions" afforded you any properly rapier-like-wit offering for us all?...I mean; beyond your typical offerings on the level of army boots and yo' momma'?
 
I give you your brain-trust and finest "minds" at work, mighty "spartans".

 

[EastUS1]

Res Judicata, on 26 October 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

APA earned it. YOU DID NOT. Typical scab entitlement."
 
 

Moi: "earned it. YOU DID NOT." Umm...OK then.  Would you care to feebly attempt even the slightest, however farcical explanation of how  Mr. Iranpour "earned" the following?  "I'm somewhere around 13 or 1400 numbers senior to myself on the Nicolau Award,"  AFSHIN IRANPOUR

I give you your brain-trust and finest "minds" at work, mighty "spartans". "

 
A predictably immediate minus vote, but an equally predictable, complete lack of any rational and reasoned response, however trite in nature....I rest my case.
 
No matter really. Go "spartans"!

 

[EastUS1]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What a bunch of numbskulls "

 
Sigh! Give at least this your very best shot and then get back to us all.  Who knows? You could perhaps found the very first "spartan" chapter?   https://www.us.mensa.org/?LinkServID=77CCC49A-F62E-41FE-A26C0C3BFF4B267D
 
Once more: I give you your brain-trust and finest "minds" at work, mighty "spartans".
 
For local references, check these folks. They'll even accept testably qualified "spartans", I promise. http://www.phoenix.us.mensa.org/
 
PS: At least 5 "minus spartan" votes quickly accumulated within a single page? Clearly; my work here is done for now. Have a fine night All, and proper apologies for multiple repetitions of the "spartan" bit. Selfish indulgence is admitted here. It always makes me laugh.