August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Reed Richards]

OK, I am done reading the transcripts. XXXXX is the Company. The Company lawyers were primary participants in the creation of the seniority language in the MOU. The same Company that told the West Class the NIC was not the list. Connect the dots. USAPA is under trial in a DFR for language in which the Company was complicit. If USAPA is found guilty by Silver, the Company was an abettor. And to top it off, the language survived examination by a LEO principle, Holmes, and was recommended for a positive vote by LEO and it lawyers. There is no smoking gun, other than the one use by LEO to shoot itself in the foot. All that said, Silver is still going to "pull a Wake." RR

 

[CallawayGolf]

OK, I am done reading the transcripts. XXXXX is the Company. The Company lawyers were primary participants in the creation of the seniority language in the MOU. The same Company that told the West Class the NIC was not the list. Connect the dots. USAPA is under trial in a DFR for language in which the Company was complicit. If USAPA is found guilty by Silver, the Company was an abettor. And to top it off, the language survived examination by a LEO principle, Holmes, and was recommended for a positive vote by LEO and it lawyers. There is no smoking gun, other than the one use by LEO to shoot itself in the foot. All that said, Silver is still going to "pull a Wake." RR

And it's the same Company that filed the DJ to find out if a non-NIC list carries liability for USAPA and for themselves. And having not received an actionable answer from Silver at the district level they appealed to the Ninth to get an answer they can unpark negotiations with.

Why can't negotiations continue on a stand-alone LCC JCBA without an answer concerning the NIC but somehow the MOU supposedly just eliminates with no DFR and no judicial relief. Seems that the MOU is, as has been said multiple times, seniority neutral just as the Company has always maintained their position in the matter. It's what USAPA does in the final product that will determine the DFR question.

Silver is unpredictable. I wouldn't begin to guess what she will do next.

 

[snapthis]

OK, I am done reading the transcripts.

Truth hurts doesn't it.....Transcripts don't lie.

Let's start with Dr Jacobs finally getting an answer to his question from Mr Pauley during his cross examination. He finally got an answer on his second try:

Q. I know it's a tough question to answer because you're​

probably concerned that it might affect the outcome of the case​

but I asked you a yes-or-no question.​

Is there any possibility in your mind that the​

sausage factory process of integrating the lists here, that the​

end product that comes out through your committee and the BPR​

that is then integrated with the APA pilots, is there any​

possibility, yes or no, that it could be the Nicolau list?​

A. No.​

Q. Thank you.​

The original question:

Q. Is there any possibility, realistic possibility in your​

mind, that those plans could change and that the four East​

Pilots and two West Pilots on the Merger Committee would​

decide, you know, the fair thing to do is to use the Nicolau​

list, recommend that to the Board of Pilot Representatives and​

that board, with eight East Pilots and three West Pilots, would​

vote to integrate seniority using the Nicolau list blending it​

into the APA list? Is there any possibility that that could​

happen?

Pauley's response:

A. I believe the way it will go is we will take the input​

from all of the committees -- to me from the committee members

and we'll do our due diligence and go through various​

proposals. The proposals will, again, give due weight to the​

status and category of the pilots as they exist on our lists​

today. Those components, statuses of Captain or First Officer,​

and the categories of whether they fly a large wide-body​

aircraft, a small wide-body aircraft, a narrow-body aircraft​

and so forth. Those are the status and categories. So it​

would give due weight to those positions as we blend the list​

together.​

And the other key component, as we talked about​

before, is to maintain the principles of date of hire. One of​

the key components in any type of seniority integration we'll​

put forward will also include the length of service and give​

due weight to that.​

In the seniority integration that the result from the​

Nicolau Award, it was exclusively a status and category list.​

It gave no deference whether the pilot had one year of service​

or 20 years of service. They were blended on a sheer ratio​

from the status and category.​

So to the extent we will give weight to the status​

and category that exists in the Nicolau list, it would be a​

blend. It would be a hybrid. Hopefully, it would be something​

that we could all embrace and move forward and the​

opportunities of flying more aircraft and more domiciles on a​

global, that it would be the largest airline once it's ​

combined, the opportunities for all of us are grand. The​

career for the younger pilots in this industry is wonderful.​

And the career of the new-hire pilots and younger pilots​

amongst US Airways is quite right.​

So we believe, through this process, we can come up​

with a hybrid methodology that our all of our members on the​

committee, as I attested to, are very serious members and​

serious about coming to a resolution on this. We can give due consideration to the things that Arbitrator Nicolau had given consideration to. But in addition to that, in conjunction with our charter, we do have to give due consideration to the​

pilots' length of service as well.

 

[EastUS1]

And it's the same Company that filed the DJ to find out if a non-NIC list carries liability for USAPA and for themselves. And having not received an actionable answer from Silver at the district level they appealed to the Ninth to get an answer they can unpark negotiations with.

Silver is unpredictable. I wouldn't begin to guess what she will do next.

For the first portion: I'm pleased to see you've also a fine sense of humor, ie; "the same Company" so "they can unpark negotiations"? Seriously? We can't really be at all, in any possible way, truly discussing "the same Company"/team tempe here, can we? Should no merger happen...the soonest you would see "the Company" ever willingly "unpark negotiations" would likely be just after the closing ceremonies in Hell, after hosting the Winter Olympic Games for the third or fourth time, at the very least. Send forward yet a few more "spartans" on video, eagerly asking of Mr. Parker if they can "turn in" other pilots, set up another cheering section for injunctions/etc...and...well...Sigh!..Nevermind...Just good luck to all concerned on ever seeing any viable contract offers, outside of a merger at least.

Per the unpredictable products of courtrooms? = Fully agreed.

 

[Reed Richards]

Why can't negotiations continue on a stand-alone LCC JCBA without an answer concerning the NIC but somehow the MOU supposedly just eliminates with no DFR and no judicial relief.

Because we are parked by the NMB pending (at a minimum) on the outcome of the declaratory judgment before the Ninth. The Company has masterfully insured that East and West have no avenue for contract improvement outside a merger. Not to mention the East injunction. RR

 

[Reed Richards]

Truth hurts doesn't it.....Transcripts don't lie.

Let's start with Dr Jacobs finally getting an answer to his question from Mr Pauley during his cross examination. He finally got an answer on his second try:

Q. I know it's a tough question to answer because you're​

probably concerned that it might affect the outcome of the case​

but I asked you a yes-or-no question.​

Is there any possibility in your mind that the​

sausage factory process of integrating the lists here, that the​

end product that comes out through your committee and the BPR​

that is then integrated with the APA pilots, is there any​

possibility, yes or no, that it could be the Nicolau list?​

A. No.​

Q. Thank you.​

The original question:

Q. Is there any possibility, realistic possibility in your​

mind, that those plans could change and that the four East​

Pilots and two West Pilots on the Merger Committee would​

decide, you know, the fair thing to do is to use the Nicolau​

list, recommend that to the Board of Pilot Representatives and​

that board, with eight East Pilots and three West Pilots, would​

vote to integrate seniority using the Nicolau list blending it​

into the APA list? Is there any possibility that that could​

happen?

Pauley's response:

A. I believe the way it will go is we will take the input​

from all of the committees -- to me from the committee members

and we'll do our due diligence and go through various​

proposals. The proposals will, again, give due weight to the​

status and category of the pilots as they exist on our lists​

today. Those components, statuses of Captain or First Officer,​

and the categories of whether they fly a large wide-body​

aircraft, a small wide-body aircraft, a narrow-body aircraft​

and so forth. Those are the status and categories. So it​

would give due weight to those positions as we blend the list​

together.​

And the other key component, as we talked about​

before, is to maintain the principles of date of hire. One of​

the key components in any type of seniority integration we'll​

put forward will also include the length of service and give​

due weight to that.​

In the seniority integration that the result from the​

Nicolau Award, it was exclusively a status and category list.​

It gave no deference whether the pilot had one year of service​

or 20 years of service. They were blended on a sheer ratio​

from the status and category.​

So to the extent we will give weight to the status​

and category that exists in the Nicolau list, it would be a​

blend. It would be a hybrid. Hopefully, it would be something​

that we could all embrace and move forward and the​

opportunities of flying more aircraft and more domiciles on a​

global, that it would be the largest airline once it's ​

combined, the opportunities for all of us are grand. The​

career for the younger pilots in this industry is wonderful.​

And the career of the new-hire pilots and younger pilots​

amongst US Airways is quite right.​

So we believe, through this process, we can come up​

with a hybrid methodology that our all of our members on the​

committee, as I attested to, are very serious members and​

serious about coming to a resolution on this. We can give due consideration to the things that Arbitrator Nicolau had given consideration to. But in addition to that, in conjunction with our charter, we do have to give due consideration to the​

pilots' length of service as well.

[font="Arial""]Old news. You STILL have not figured out the NIC will not be the list in any merger or negotiation. Really? You think this a revelation? RR[/font]

 

[EastUS1]

Because we are parked by the NMB pending (at a minimum) on the outcome of the declaratory judgment before the Ninth. The Company has masterfully insured that East and West have no avenue for contract improvement outside a merger. Not to mention the East injunction. RR

Pretty much....

 

[CallawayGolf]

Because we are parked by the NMB pending (at a minimum) on the outcome of the declaratory judgment before the Ninth. The Company has masterfully insured that East and West have no avenue for contract improvement outside a merger. Not to mention the East injunction. RR

Unless the NIC is agreed to by USAPA of course.

 

[Reed Richards]

Unless the NIC is agreed to by USAPA of course.

Agreed. RR

 

[EastUS1]

Unless the NIC is agreed to by USAPA of course.

Even stepping briefly into Fantasyland, so's to allow that possibility: It would make no real difference, unless/until all the "spartans" turned in their knee-pads/chapstick and dismissed their eager squad of management's most-prized little cheerleaders....and how many of "you'se" would even be left, if just that last alone, ever happened?

From observing these past 6 years now: It's my very sad, but fully honest estimation that your group, on your best day, would offer nothing more than dead-weight towards efforts at gaining contractual improvements, and, at worst; actively self-obsessed saboteurs. I calls 'em as I sees 'em. Don't fantasize that mgmt's missed any of your sentiments and antics either, and would ever turn around and assume "you'se" to have magically become "tough" at any given "snapshot in time".

 

[Reed Richards]

If Parker is serious about wanting a seat at the table for the West Class, he needs to come to the table with USAPA and work out an agreement. To be frank, it would need to have enough economic incentive to the East pilots to make them vote for such a change, as would be required. The Company, by outright theft, just took 80-90M from the East pilots by not paying them their 3% raises. I understand that action was ruled "legal" by our arbitration system, but a windfall none the less. Money talks. RR

 

[CallawayGolf]

If Parker is serious about wanting a seat at the table for the West Class, he needs to come to the table with USAPA and work out an agreement. To be frank, it would need to have enough economic incentive to the East pilots to make them vote for such a change, as would be required. The Company, by outright theft, just took 80-90M from the East pilots by not paying them their 3% raises. I understand that action was ruled "legal" by our arbitration system, but a windfall none the less. Money talks. RR

Why pay more than what is contractually required to a group that has held the entire company hostage for 5-8 years because they didn't want to abide by the agreement they made to integrate the seniority list by a defined process with binding results? Didn't USAPA take out USA today ads to make the Company look bad in the public eye? Didn't USAPA falsely accuse Management of running an unsafe operation in order to pressure the company to accept a seniority list of questionable legality? Didn't USAPA call for the firing of corporate officers outcry spite? Who in their right mind would give an inch to such an unscrupulous group who will attempt to screw you even if you do something above an beyond what is required?

 

[EastUS1]

....held the entire company hostage.....

Ah! Yet more tender and well-evidenced, why heck, even downright precious concern for the "company", meaning management. I rest my case. Best that you always keep those pom poms constantly cleaned and ready, little "spartan".

 

[Reed Richards]

Why pay more than what is contractually required to a group that has held the entire company hostage for 5-8 years because they didn't want to abide by the agreement they made to integrate the seniority list by a defined process with binding results? Didn't USAPA take out USA today ads to make the Company look bad in the public eye? Didn't USAPA falsely accuse Management of running an unsafe operation in order to pressure the company to accept a seniority list of questionable legality? Didn't USAPA call for the firing of corporate officers outcry spite? Who in their right mind would give an inch to such an unscrupulous group who will attempt to screw you even if you do something above an beyond what is required?

Noted. Then also, why give (an inch) the West Class a seat at the table when the law of the land has said "no" to that since the CAB days? The West Class and Parker want something they are not legally allowed to get. And I won't bite on fuel school tonight. Shame on you for not seeing the line that was crossed there. We feel we were legally entitled to our 3% raises, but the legal system said we were not. You feel you are entitled to the NIC, same legal system says for going on 7 years you also are not entitled, supporting our not "abiding" by said agreement. I actually think we are on the same page. RR

 

[CallawayGolf]

Ah! Yet more tender and well-evidenced, why heck, even downright precious concern for the "company", meaning management. I rest my case. Best that you always keep those pom poms constantly cleaned and ready, little "spartan".

If speaking the truth doesn't fit with your worldview, so be it. Call me any name you like. It doesn't have the slightest effect on me.