August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

You lost all possible credibility at "Management says". No court or judge anywhere has or would've prevented them from negotiating a contract, nor would do so now....period.

Exactly my point. The courts, the NMB, and AOL/west have not interfered with USAPA/Management negotiations. The NMB, however, has parked negotiations pending the outcome of the SLI question concerning the NIC. Management could resume negotiations if the substantial risk of collusion liability was removed. Management sees a substantial risk with discarding the NIC; Silver agreed there is substantial risk for discarding the NIC; the NMB agrees that Management cannot negotiate with the substantial risk of accepting a non-NIC list, and AOL has stated repeatedly that there is risk and liability (harm) from accepting a non-NIC list. By my count, that's most or all of the people in authority who have said Management faces risk for accepting a USAPA non-NIC proposal. The only ones who think there is no risk are east pilots and USAPA, but they cannot be trusted to be objective as they stand alone in their "free to negotiate without risk" opinion.

 

[EastUS1]

Seriously; if anyone can't clearly see the extent of the game management's been playing, and that there's been an ever-so-convenient excuse for their avoiding any negotiations purely due to the west's great love of litigation...well...you've simply got to be kidding us all here. The west position's long been that the evil easties are the source of all problems anywhere in the universe. Why not finally, at least accept some slight shred of responsibility for what you've done as well?

Exactly my point. The courts, the NMB, and AOL/west have not interfered with USAPA/Management negotiations. The NMB, however, has parked negotiations pending the outcome of the SLI question concerning the NIC. Management could resume negotiations if the substantial risk of collusion liability was removed. Management sees a substantial risk with discarding the NIC; Silver agreed there is substantial risk for discarding the NIC; the NMB agrees that Management cannot negotiate with the substantial risk of accepting a non-NIC list, and AOL has stated repeatedly that there is risk and liability (harm) from accepting a non-NIC list. By my count, that's most or all of the people in authority who have said Management faces risk for accepting a USAPA non-NIC proposal. The only ones who think there is no risk are east pilots and USAPA, but they cannot be trusted to be objective as they stand alone in their "free to negotiate without risk" opinion.

Thanks for making my point both obvious and very clear for all to see. I must assume your post is offered in some hope of defending against the last notion: Why not finally, at least accept some slight shred of responsibility for what you've done as well?

No matter. It's all still just business as usual here.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Seriously; if anyone can't clearly see the extent of the game management's been playing, and that there's been an ever-so-convenient excuse for their avoiding any negotiations purely due to the west's great love of litigation...well...you've simply got to be kidding us all here. The west position's long been that the evil easties are the source of all problems anywhere in the universe. Why not finally, at least accept some slight shred of responsibility for what you've done as well?




Thanks for making my point both obvious and very clear for all to see. I must assume your post is offered in some hope of defending against the last notion: Why not finally, at least accept some slight shred of responsibility for what you've done as well?

No matter. It's all still just business as usual here.

LOL; I haven't done or not done anything that would alter the course of the this dispute or the negotiations between the CBA and Management in the slightest way possible. Why don't you let me know what you are accusing me of so I know what I'm supposed to be taking responsibility for?

 

[traderjake]

Why don't you let me know what you are accusing me of so I know what I'm supposed to be taking responsibility for?

He's mad because you won't help him steal your job.

 

[EastUS1]

He's mad because you won't help him steal your job.

Oh hardly Jake, and you should know better than that. I've no interest in getting anyone else's job. All I did was point out some of the tools AOL so eagerly handed to management, and I can certainly state that I've no interest in any "tool's" job in PHX.

 

[Phoenix]

Oh hardly Jake, and you should know better than that. I've no interest in getting anyone else's job. All I did was point out the tools AOL so eagerly handed to management.

Frankly I don't think the West did anything wrong. They are giving money to Leospanker and USCABA. Its a free county. There is no law about being stupid with your money.

That being said, if the company stays true to the MOU (assuming the merger goes through) then Leospanker will continue to sue about the Nic for all eternity. Whatever, like I already said, its a free country.

 

[EastUS1]

Frankly I don't think the West did anything wrong. They are giving money to Leospanker and USCABA. Its a free county. There is no law about being stupid with your money.

That being said, if the company stays true to the MOU (assuming the merger goes through) then Leospanker will continue to sue about the Nic for all eternity. Whatever, like I already said, its a free country.

Agreed, although "it's a free country" is becoming increasingly debatable, but that's for another discussion. The west folks are acting within their legal rights, as are the east. Management couldn't have been given a better gift to play with than the nic.

 

[Pi brat]

That being said, if the company stays true to the MOU (assuming the merger goes through) then Leospanker will continue to sue about the Nic for all eternity. Whatever, like I already said, its a free country.

Looks like Silver is going to give them their own seat at the table. Who will they sue then, themselves? ;-)

 

[EastUS1]

Looks like Silver is going to give them their own seat at the table. Who will they sue then, themselves? ;-)

Themselves? I'd think so, if they run out of other options.

 

[nevergiveup]

Looks like Silver is going to give them their own seat at the table. Who will they sue then, themselves? ;-)

No doubt it will go to arbitration if the west has a seat. 2 yrs plus to capture attrition for all three sides, possibly much more. Maybe good, maybe bad. More legal battles to follow.

 

[Metroyet]

Yes, at long last the APA will finally be able to give their 777's to a handful of pilots from a small sand lot airline out in Arizona. They have been salivating for this for years and its almost in their grasp. The APA invented the original T-minus clock for this very purpose.

It all depends upon the final and binding arbitration....but you knew that already.

 

[CallawayGolf]

No doubt it will go to arbitration if the west has a seat. 2 yrs plus to capture attrition for all three sides, possibly much more. Maybe good, maybe bad. More legal battles to follow.

Just checking to clarify your thinking here... Are you suggesting that the way to overturn a federal judge's order is to have the various pilot groups enter into binding arbitration? Or are you suggesting that if Silver creates a three-way seniority integration authority that the parties have no chance of negotiating a mutually-acceptable agreement so the only possible solution left after that is to request an arbitrator to resolve the issues using M/B provisions?

Thanks.

 

[Phoenix]

Looks like Silver is going to give them their own seat at the table. Who will they sue then, themselves? ;-)

Themselves? I'd think so, if they run out of other options.

If Silver orders that the West is entitled to receive a seat at the MB table (in accordance with an MOU that is not even effective ) then by definition such an order is a "remedy" awarded to the plaintiff for an injury caused by the defendant, namely that USAPA failed its DFR by not including the Nic in the MOU.

If she doesn't find USAPA guilty of a DFR for not using the Nic in the MOU, then by what rationale would she award a remedy? thus, if she finds that USAPA breached its duty of DFR by not including the Nic, then why would she have any remedy other than an injunction including the Nic?

If Silver only gives the West a seat at the table (but not Nic), then certainly they must appeal to the 9th. Needles to say, Wake and Silver are in a league all their own with regard to screwing the pooch by the numbers.

 

[Phoenix]

No doubt it will go to arbitration if the west has a seat. 2 yrs plus to capture attrition for all three sides, possibly much more. Maybe good, maybe bad. More legal battles to follow.

Just checking to clarify your thinking here... Are you suggesting that the way to overturn a federal judge's order is to have the various pilot groups enter into binding arbitration? Or are you suggesting that if Silver creates a three-way seniority integration authority that the parties have no chance of negotiating a mutually-acceptable agreement so the only possible solution left after that is to request an arbitrator to resolve the issues using M/B provisions?

Thanks.

This isn't rocket science, and the "thinking" of a poster here isn't going to matter much.

If Judge Silver establishes three pilots groups that must decide on seniority then it is obvious the Nic will prevent a three-way agreement---All three groups will never agree to use the Nic, and all three groups will never agree to use something other than the Nic.

Regardless of what Silver does, someone is going to appeal. One side wants Silver to intervene and provide an injunction about how the pilots can proceed, the other side wants the court to leave the union free to perform its duty of representation to a final product.

Meanwhile, everyone enjoys their current seniority (or not) and everyone dreams about a pay raise, damages, or lottery tickets (or not).

 

[CallawayGolf]

This isn't rocket science, and the "thinking" of a poster here isn't going to matter much.

If Judge Silver establishes three pilots groups that must decide on seniority then it is obvious the Nic will prevent a three-way agreement---All three groups will never agree to use the Nic, and all three groups will never agree to use something other than the Nic.

Regardless of what Silver does, someone is going to appeal. One side wants Silver to intervene and provide an injunction about how the pilots can proceed, the other side wants the court to leave the union free to perform its duty of representation to a final product.

Meanwhile, everyone enjoys their current seniority (or not) and everyone dreams about a pay raise, damages, or lottery tickets (or not).

In a three-way negotiation process would the requirement be a unanimous agreement or would 2/3 be sufficient? Seems like the west would do just fine with a fresh slotting by equipment/status integration as APA has already indicated they are in support of. Likewise, I'm not sure what the AMR pilots would gain by siding with the east against the NIC and opening themselves up to DFR liabilities alng with inviting a protracted and costly battle with little to no benefit for going that way. So if 2/3 in the process would work, then either the NIC or ratioed slotting seems like it would have a strong chance of clearing the hurdles to achieve a final product without arbitrators and courts. On the other hand, regardless if it's just APA and USAPA or + west with a unanimous requirement, a USAPA adherence to a DOH scheme would mean arbitration is inevitable regardless of what the west does or does not do.