Are F/a's Taking Leaves?

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

They are talking about loads and levels of service which per our gutted CBA require additional flight attendant(s) over and above FAA minimum. Flight can not leave the gate if FAA minimum number of flight attendants on board. For that matter, passengers can not be boarded until FAA minimum is on board.

As long as FAA minimum is on board, there is nothing in the contract that allows a flight attendant to refuse to go. If the CBA minimum do not go, the flight attendants who work the flight can put in for understaffing pay. A flight attendant who refuses to fly under those circumstances is jeopardizing his/her job.

The problem is that with the RPA provisions "negotiated" by Mr. Ward, it is cheaper for the company to pay understaffing pay in most cases than it is to pay the extra flight attendant(s) to work the flight.

[post="169601"][/post]​

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Thanks jimntx.

Sounds like to me that one of the first things to go, in the next contract, will be "RPA", and hopefully it will be urged by "THB"

NH/BB's

 

[jimntx]

===============================================

Thanks jimntx.

Sounds like to me that one of the first things to go, in the next contract, will be "RPA", and hopefully it will be urged by "THB"

NH/BB's

[post="169682"][/post]​

Unfortunately, that is wishful thinking on anyone's part. The pay, benefits, and work rules given away by John Ward will not be regained in my lifetime, much less in the next contract.

 

[Garfield1966]

The company would have to ask the APFA to give it up in concessions. They can't just take AVBL away as they please. AVBL is not going to go bye-bye anytime soon.

[post="169537"][/post]​

Actually, they are talking about doing away with AVBL as we speak. It's a huge waste of money, time and resources. Besides, most the FA's I speak with hate it.

 

[LiveInAHotel]

Actually, they are talking about doing away with AVBL as we speak. It's a huge waste of money, time and resources. Besides, most the FA's I speak with hate it.

[post="169758"][/post]​

Garf,

AA can't take AVBL away just because they feel like it. They first have to contact the APFA and have it negotiated. The APFA if it decides to then must send it out for the membership to vote on if they want to keep it or not. Most f/a's I work with like AVBL. It isn't as good as when we could plot trips and max our time, call you and turn all the other AVBL days into DO's, before we actually flew the trips.

 

[jimntx]

Actually, they are talking about doing away with AVBL as we speak. It's a huge waste of money, time and resources. Besides, most the FA's I speak with hate it.

[post="169758"][/post]​

Maybe so Garfield, but Live's point is that AVBL is written into the contract. The company can not just "do away with it." In fact, in the Index to the CBA there is over a page of references to Availability and Available Days. This is not some minor contract clause that can be overlooked/ignored by the company.

And, since the company has made it clear to the APFA that there will be no discussion of the CBA or the RPA until openers in 2006, I don't know why you would be wasting valuable time and effort "talking about doing away with AVBL" at this time.

 

[FA Mikey]

In this instance everyone is right. Availability as we call it, Is open replacement. There is nothing written that says AA must offer an availability or full month open replacement schedule. Open time and replacement are written in to cover open sequences, low on time lines, loss of trip (MIC) Etc. AA can choose to not offer on the bid sheet AVBL lines, and yea you will see AVBL days on schedules and you will keep the same rules and regs for the call ins and awards for those trips.

 

[Garfield1966]

That was my understanding as well. According to the discussion we had at work, AVBL is not contractually obligated. When I said it was being discussed, I mean that management is discussing how to get rid of it with the APFA. My guess and hope is that with in the next few months or so, AVBL will be a thing of the past.

Jim, letters of agreement happen all the time. So anything that can be done to make this airline more efficient in my opinion is not a waste of time. One more item Jim. As far as I know, very few airlines have VM’s or extra positions based on loads. WN, DL and a number of others bid an aircraft at X number and it goes with X. Does not mater of the flight is full or empty. No one gets paid less if a flight goes out with 10 people so not sure why folks should get additional pay when the load goes up and there is no extra.

We are all working harder for less. It is the world we live in and the industry we are a part of. I feel Jim is right, things will not go “back to normalâ€￾ any time soon.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

That was my understanding as well. According to the discussion we had at work, AVBL is not contractually obligated. When I said it was being discussed, I mean that management is discussing how to get rid of it with the APFA. My guess and hope is that with in the next few months or so, AVBL will be a thing of the past.

Jim, letters of agreement happen all the time. So anything that can be done to make this airline more efficient in my opinion is not a waste of time. One more item Jim. As far as I know, very few airlines have VM’s or extra positions based on loads. WN, DL and a number of others bid an aircraft at X number and it goes with X. Does not mater of the flight is full or empty. No one gets paid less if a flight goes out with 10 people so not sure why folks should get additional pay when the load goes up and there is no extra.

We are all working harder for less. It is the world we live in and the industry we are a part of. I feel Jim is right, things will not go “back to normalâ€￾ any time soon.

[post="169805"][/post]​

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Garfield1966;
You ARE correct about "letters of (CONVENIENT) agreement" being reached with HDQ, for many, many years, by every union on AA property, for FAR TOO LONG.

Many members of the TWU,APFA, and to a MUCH lesser degree APA, will agree that these "letters" have been a SCOURGE on our unions, for far too long.

Given the sad FACT that none of the 3 unions have had leaders that know how to say "NO" to AA, it's no wonder that these "letters" exist.

It is my SINCERE HOPE, that starting with the installation of "THB", that our unions begin to see leaders that AA can NOT TAKE FOR GRANTED .(If AMFA should get in, that will raise the number to "2")

Fortunately,(yes in part, due to the concessions), it looks like AA will emerge from the halocaust of legacy carriers(along with NW)(Myprediction), still intact, (given the fact that the FEDS have put UA on "notice", that they will demand liquidation, before they get stuck with pension plans).

Garfield, I realize I'm starting to ramble, so let me state my "bottom line".

I hope that not(Non Union) YOU, or Retired(Union) ME, or ANYBODY else affiliated with AA, foolishly thinks that the majority of union members, and AA management will suddenly become "ALL WARM AND FUZZY", just because AA survives the halocaust !!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's

ps.

Garfield, you'll never agree with me, that I'm NOT starting any #### here, just stateing FACT.

 

[Garfield1966]

I do agree that t is highly unlikely to be any warm and fuzzy but if people do not start working together, looking to the future and working for the collective good instead of what helps "me" right now, we might as well all go looking for a new job.

As far as the letters of agreement, it seems to me, as far as the APFA goes, most seem to favor them. The most recent that I can recall is that now we must run make up a second time at night before we plot the reserves. Used to be we ran it at 12n and 4pm when the sick list was cleared. Now, after we run it at 4p, we have to run it a second time before we plot. Why, to allow anyone who forgot to put them selves on the MU list to do so. HINT: MU occurs EVERY day at the SAME time. As far as I am concerned, if you "forget", to bad. Wait for the next trip. Just another procedure we have to follow.

How else would one make changes if a contract lasts for 5 plus years? Things change from day to day in our industry. Seems the most expedient way to resolve things as far as I am concerned.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I do agree that t is highly unlikely to be any warm and fuzzy but if people do not start working together, looking to the future and working for the collective good instead of what helps "me" right now, we might as well all go looking for a new job.

As far as the letters of agreement, it seems to me, as far as the APFA goes, most seem to favor them. The most recent that I can recall is that now we must run make up a second time at night before we plot the reserves. Used to be we ran it at 12n and 4pm when the sick list was cleared. Now, after we run it at 4p, we have to run it a second time before we plot. Why, to allow anyone who forgot to put them selves on the MU list to do so. HINT: MU occurs EVERY day at the SAME time. As far as I am concerned, if you "forget", to bad. Wait for the next trip. Just another procedure we have to follow.

How else would one make changes if a contract lasts for 5 plus years? Things change from day to day in our industry. Seems the most expedient way to resolve things as far as I am concerned.

[post="169934"][/post]​

==============================================

Garfield1966,
Your right again("5 year contracts")

GOD willing, should AMFA get in, coupled with "THB", MABEY the realm of 5 year contracts could become HISTORY.
Garfield, in principle, a contract is a CONTRACT, amendable ONLY at it's expiration date !!

I know I use the West Coast Dockworkers, (Longshoremen) a lot in examples, but because they too are part of the USA transportation system, my analogy has merit.

Once the Dockworkers sign a "3" year deal, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "SIDE LETTER" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And WHEN there is a strike, "NO ONE" from the US/Mexican coast boarder, to the US/Canadian border EVEN thinks about crossing a picket line !!!!!!!1

THAT, garfield IS a union, a REAL union, that managements from CA. to OR. to WA. "FEAR", with a capital "F"

NH/BB's

 

[FA Mikey]

==============================================

Garfield1966,
Your right again("5 year contracts")

GOD willing, should AMFA get in, coupled with "THB", MABEY the realm of 5 year contracts could become HISTORY.
Garfield, in principle, a contract is a CONTRACT, amendable ONLY at it's expiration date !!

I know I use the West Coast Dockworkers, (Longshoremen) a lot in examples, but because they too are part of the USA transportation system, my analogy has merit.

Once the Dockworkers sign a "3" year deal, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "SIDE LETTER" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And WHEN there is a strike, "NO ONE" from the US/Mexican coast boarder, to the US/Canadian border EVEN thinks about crossing a picket line !!!!!!!1

THAT, garfield IS a union, a REAL union, that managements from CA. to OR. to WA. "FEAR", with a capital "F"

NH/BB's

[post="169947"][/post]​

That's a bit to unilateral. Understand that sometimes subtle changes and clarifications to the CBA must be made. If the company come to you needing something, you have to mindful that there is a reason and it comes with a price of something we need or want.

Every union and group has something. Longshoremen, have muscle. Flight attendants are not dock workers and have to be a bit more savvy in how they position themselves. It an evolving process and one that the f/a's at AA proved without tattoos and biceps they too could hold there own. Even being up against one of the toughest CEO's out there.

Gone are the days when the TWU got the ear of the company when they would send out full 707's without a single Bag on board or due the other put everything on the wrong plane. It was a short lived action and the company was on the phone. They got subtle changes made to there CBA or terminated people back to work.

 

[Garfield1966]

==============================================

Garfield1966,
Your right again("5 year contracts")

GOD willing, should AMFA get in, coupled with "THB", MABEY the realm of 5 year contracts could become HISTORY.
Garfield, in principle, a contract is a CONTRACT, amendable ONLY at it's expiration date !!

I know I use the West Coast Dockworkers, (Longshoremen) a lot in examples, but because they too are part of the USA transportation system, my analogy has merit.

Once the Dockworkers sign a "3" year deal, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "SIDE LETTER" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And WHEN there is a strike, "NO ONE" from the US/Mexican coast boarder, to the US/Canadian border EVEN thinks about crossing a picket line !!!!!!!1

THAT, garfield IS a union, a REAL union, that managements from CA. to OR. to WA. "FEAR", with a capital "F"

NH/BB's

[post="169947"][/post]​

Sorry, I find that type of behavior to be childish and it serves no purpose. That type of behavior is no better than what Carty did. It hurst the company and the good will of the customers.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Sorry, I find that type of behavior to be childish and it serves no purpose. That type of behavior is no better than what Carty did. It hurst the company and the good will of the customers.

[post="170032"][/post]​

Garfield1966,

OF COURSE "YOU" would think that NOT crossing a picket line to be "CHILDISH" !!




Mikey;

You make some good point's.
I suppose a "velvet fist" and a smile can work good too.


NH/BB's

 

[Garfield1966]

Garfield1966,

OF COURSE "YOU" would think that NOT crossing a picket line to be "CHILDISH" !!
Mikey;

You make some good point's.
I suppose a "velvet fist" and a smile can work good too.
NH/BB's

[post="170039"][/post]​

Actually what I was addressing was the use of fear in any type of business relationship. But you are correct, if I did not agree with the purose of a strike (which is very likely) I would not hesitate to cross the line.

 

[FA Mikey]

Actually what I was addressing was the use of fear in any type of business relationship. But you are correct, if I did not agree with the purose of a strike (which is very likely) I would not hesitate to cross the line.

[post="170059"][/post]​

Even fear is reallly not the right word. Both sides use that in many different ways. I think maybe using violence or threat of is a better way to put it.