prechilill
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2002
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Now that's funny! And so true!!!
April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion
- Thread starter Falcon
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Now that's funny! And so true!!!
snapthis
Veteran
- Dec 23, 2009
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Somewhat greater than zero. You might want to take another look at your seniority award. Don't let the facts get in the way:
The Background
As in many other mergers, the airlines differ in size, with US
Airways substantially larger than America West. The former, a product
of previous mergers over the course of a number of years, is also much
older, which consequently reflects a wide disparity in pilot dates of hire
as between the two airlines. Additionally, US Airways has a substantial
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international presence in which planes not in America West's fleet are
flown. However, in most categories, America West's pay scales are
higher. Beyond this, at the time of the merger announcement, US
Airways had a significant number of pilots on furlough while America
West had none. Moreover, the financial future of US Airways was not
comparable to or as bright as that of America West.
These factors, as could be predicted, led to great differences In
the Parties' concepts of a fair and equitable merger. In basic outline,
US Airways argued for a Date of Hire list, adjusted for Length of
Service, subject to certain seven-year conditions and restrictions, a
model that placed the most senior America West pilot far down the
seniority list and merged a number of furloughed US Airways pilots
above active pilots at America West. In contrast, America West, relying
heavily on its view of the pre-merger financial picture at US Airways,
urged a series of ratios that gave little weight to the longer service of
pilots at US Air. Despite indications by the Board that both approaches
created difficulties if the goal was a fair and equitable integration,
those positions were not fundamentally changed.
Before discussing the aforesaid approaches in greater detail,
some uncontroverted facts and then some recent history. US Airways is
the product of a series of mergers stretching back to 1968. At the time
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of the US Air/America West merger, US Airways had a grand total of
5098 pilots on its seniority list, 1691 of which (33%) were on furlough.'
Their dates of hire (DOH) ranged from 4/20/66 to 6/19/00, with themost senior furloughed pilot (Colello) having been hired in 1988. When
furloughed in 2003, Colello (3303) had 16.4 years of service.P
In contrast to the US Airways genesis of 1968, America West did
not begin service until 1983. As of the merger, it had 1894 pilots on its
list. All, however, were active and less than 200 had spent time on
furlough and then for relatively short periods during the early and mid-
90s, at which point hiring resumed with 1131 additional pilots added to
the list." The most senior America West pilot was hired on 6/1/83, 17
years after the most senior pilot on the other airline, and America
West's least senior pilot (Odell) was hired on 4/4/05, close to 5 years
after the hiring date of US Airways' least senior furloughee and only a
month before the merger. Another disparate factor was the difference
in the age of both groups, leading US Airways to argue, with its higher
lThe 1691 include 105 so-called CEL (Combined Eligibility List) pilots
who never flew on the mainline, to be discussed below, and 212
other Mid-Atlantic Division (MDA) pilots. Though listed as active in a
US Airways summary sheet, they are carried as furloughed on the US
Airways Certified 5/ 1/05 List.
2 The number 3303 is Colello's Pilot Position Number on the US
Airways May 19, 2005 Certified Seniority List. His Seniority Number
at that time was 3538.
3 There were also some 165 America West pilots furloughed following
9/11/01, but those furloughs were somewhat short-lived. A very few
were about 11 1/2 months, the bulk were much shorter.
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average age and consequent attrition, that America West pilots would
soon inherit the list, which the America West pilots countered with the
argument that what they would inherit under the US Airways proposal
would be First Officer positions, not Captaincies.
There were also differences in the financial condition of the two
carriers. For a short time, America West had been in bankruptcy but
emerged in 1994 as a low cost carrier (LCC) operating out of hubs in
Phoenix and Las Vegas. US Airways had also declared bankruptcy, not
once but twice. And it was still in bankruptcy at the time of the merger
and was unprepared to present a reorganization plan for its emergence.
snapthis
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- Dec 23, 2009
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Walmartgreeter
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- Mar 6, 2003
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Wow, I don't think we are the ones in denial. USAPA has been told by Judge Silver that we do NOT have to negotiate using the NIC, in fact we are free to pursue our own path to an SLI. Then you can sue after it is part of a JCBA.
Why would we use ANYTHING from a failed award? USAPA, APA, and the neutral company will set the protocols for any new SLI negotiations. Any snapshots, starting points, dates, etc. will be either negotiated, mediated, or eventually arbitrated.
"Your" seat at the M/B table is through USAPA. You currently have no separate standing.
Just like anything from Judge Wake's fiasco, the NIC award and all its processes NEVER happened.
Zero furloughs on the East side at the time of the Merger.
Greeter
Phoenix
Veteran
- Apr 16, 2003
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Yes, nullity has many synonyms and denial is sort of one, in a matter of speaking. You could probably come up with some better ones though.
Consider "nullity" a synonym of "The Background" at the Effective Date.
P.S. what will nullity mean to the three arbitrator panel?
Metroyet
Veteran
- Nov 1, 2008
- 2,571
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If its just that simple, one has to wonder why USAPA has made absolutely zero progress in over 5 YEARS. The obvious answer is there's just a tad more to the story than you're willing admit.
Zone5
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- Dec 17, 2010
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Oh, that "merger", you mean the one that was never concluded through the "process" called for in the "prior" TA? Did I miss the "ratification" vote for the East-West JCBA agreement required to complete that process? I guess so, please send me a copy of it along with the vote tally. You might want to send one to management also, because I don't think they have seen it either. Which I guess is why we still have completely separate operations to this day, you know......two fleets, two training departments, two contracts, two rates of pay and two permanent equipment bids based on two separate DOH seniority lists.
The former TA from that never completed "merger" was not "wished" away, it was voted away. Gone it is, replaced by a new "process".
seajay
Metroyet
Veteran
- Nov 1, 2008
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Yes you must have missed the fact that you RATIFIED a conditional CBA. The TA is still in full force but the "neutral" company wants the courts to be the bad guy. Silver may very well throw this right on top of Johnny come lately's lap and inform them to put on their big boy pants. She already told the company that if they really wanted to avoid any liability that they, "knew what to do" your lame duck rogue "union" has wasted more of what was supposed to be your money than anything else in your endemic "career".
Relax, the bleeding is about to stop. Someday, you'll thank Marty Harper for getting you that pay raise without further delay.
snapthis
Veteran
- Dec 23, 2009
- 4,236
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Zero furloughes huh? Can you get Dean C to provide his US Airways pairings for let's see, 2004?
You'll find him just below Dave O on the seniority list.
You still have what you brought to the Airline, a junior pilot at a regional airline based in PHX. This what you will have for at least another 5 years.
"Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.
DATED this 11th day of October, 2012."
Judge Silver
This has already been discussed and litigated, you lost, get over it.
Phoenix
Veteran
- Apr 16, 2003
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US Airways agrees that it will comply with the East and West CBAs and the Transition Agreement
until the Effective Date (nullity after that).
US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for
changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in
this Paragraph 10.
During the term of the MTA, US Airways shall not furlough any pilots who have established
and maintain seniority on the US Airways mainline system as of the Effective Date. USAPA will
provide, by name, East Pilot “X” and West Pilot “Y” who will be the most junior US Airways pilots
afforded this furlough protection.
The total number of aircraft block hours scheduled to be flown by mainline US Airways East
pilots (excluding Group I aircraft) during any rolling 12-month look-back period shall be no less
than 664,426. The total number of aircraft block hours scheduled to be flown by mainline US
Airways West pilots during any rolling 12-month look-back period shall be no less than
436,850.
98% of the plaintiff class voted for this.
snapthis
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- Dec 23, 2009
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Dont call me Shirley
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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I hesitate to post on this thread, things have a way of spiraling into insults and flame wars.
But would like to draw a parallel to the Pan Am / National merger; while over thirty years ago, it was similar to the US/HP merger. Pan Am had a great many pilots on furlough, the Sun King airline had been expanding and had a relatively junior pilot corps. NA had captains who were hired after Clipper Skippers on furlough. DOH was considered unfair to the NA pilots; I must confess that I don't know the details , but IIRC that ALPA came up with some sort of slotting scheme that few were completely happy with, but did go into effect without too much nastiness. Of course, there was no internet back then, just graffiti in the loos of the crew rooms. Not nearly as effective!
There is a bit discussion of the issue in Robert Gandt's Skygods (which an excellent read and finally back in print). I'll try to dig up my copy.
Surely, someone will correct me if I am wrong.
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