April/May 2013 IAM Fleet Discussions

[blue collar]

You are truly clueless, go read what abrogation means.

It was put out for a vote, right?

 

[700UW]

Yes the judge made the union put it out for a vote.

There was no agreement reached, there was no facilitation of concessions.

He still doesnt understand the Section 1113 process.

 

[ChockJockey]

If the TWU and IAM would have battled for the whole membership, IMO, we would not have seen any worthwhile gains in wage and benefits for several years.

We still might not if a satisfactory contract can't be negotiated or ratified, or if we ratify a bad one.

Every group took a pounding, fleet didnt lose anymore than any other group.

Stop nitpicking, he wasn't trying to insult anyone.

Not according to our NC team they stated if we don't vote for the association then we LOSE representation so who's right I know you think you are but have to take the info as being reliable from a negotiator

The Q&A is (intentionally?) vague about the election:

5. Q: Will I have the opportunity to vote on whether or not I am represented by the Association?

A: Yes. Following the completion of the American –US Airways’ merger, the Associations will file representation applications with the National Mediation Board (NMB), a federal agency, which will culminate in three separate elections, one for each of the Mechanic & Related, Fleet Service and Stores classifications. You will vote in the election of the classification in which you work with others from both carriers.

So it doesn't surprise me there's a lot of confusion about this.

Learn to read and educate yourself, its black and white.

That said, shouldn't the Q&A and/or an announcement about the Association be up on the union board? I would have expected to see it by now.

 

[ChockJockey]

I think these contract negotiations are a perfect opportunity for the company to demonstrate its seriousness in wanting fleet on board with their future aspirations, whether those involve a merger or not.

 

[737823]

You are truly clueless, go read what abrogation means.

I know what abrogation means, the court rejects your CBA and works to impose a new one. Bob is right, you did usher in concessions:

I think you are obtuse.

Show me one lie, you are just like Overspeed.

I write one thing and you claim that I wrote something else, and then say I'm wrong or I lied.

Imagine that, someone who claims to be a labor leader saying that unless a law explicitly says you have the right to strike that you cant strike, its the opposite, the right to strike exists unless there is a specific restriction against it.

The RLA says that if carriers unilaterally change rates of pay or working conditions workers under the RLA can strike, other than BK how else could a carrier legally unilaterally change pay and working conditions? Legislation says we can strike but a Judicial decision says we cant sttike until we exhaust the Section 6 process.


Sharon told us no such thing because its not true. The laws are equal, however the appelate courts ruling trumps the law, and it wasnt the BK court that made the ruling.

First off I didnt say that 1113 existed back in 1983, you say I said it.

Are you sure the Unions were decertified by the Judge? Their contracts with the company was wiped out and maybe Lorenzo refused to negotiate with the Union but thats not a decertification. The members decertify, not the company. Are you claiming that BK courts have the right to decertify unions as the Collective Bargaining Agent? Once again, show me where 1113 says that workers can not strike if their contract is abrogated. I know that there was no 1113 in 1983 but show me where it says that Unions cant strike if their contract is abrogated. Even the judge in the NWA BK case said they could strike, it was another court that issued the injunction, you should know that.

You did go through this twice right?

You admitted a while back that you left USAIR, after you helped usher in two rounds of concessions, so who do you work for now?

Josh

 

[700UW]

BOb nor you are right.

Don't let the facts get in your way.

The Teuton since 1983, b-scale has led the way for concessions. They gave in 2003 voluntarily

 

[737823]

You are a business unionist, the IAM is more loyal to management than the membership they aspire to serve.

Josh

 

[mike33]

You are a business unionist, the IAM is more loyal to management than the membership they aspire to serve.

Josh

I believe a lot on this board will agree that our hope is to change that " is " to " was "

 

[Jester]

I think these contract negotiations are a perfect opportunity for the company to demonstrate its seriousness in wanting fleet on board with their future aspirations, whether those involve a merger or not.

Honestly, I think there is a fair amount of contempt by Management for Fleet as we are viewed in being overpaid (anything above 6 years) who spend half of their time in the break room. We are "unskilled" and not a public face to the passengers, who so cares if Fleet are part of the "future aspirations" within the Company? Outside of the Leads who have become de facto supervisors, and have some interaction with the public in the jet ways during boarding, Fleet are just faceless, overpaid bag mashers who are obvious targets for outsourcing in the view of the Tempe Boys. What did Doug Parker once said during a town hall meeting to the effect that he didn't want fleet service agents longer than 5 years in seniority, and certainly not to make this a career! Every other work group on the Property are either dealing with the public directly or "skilled" (as measured by licensing and certifications), and thus more difficult to outsource. Parker only kowtowed to the AA FSAs as he wanted all of AA's unions support of the deal, but once that's over, his love affair with AA FSAs will be "fleeting".

 

[700UW]

.

 

[P. REZ]

I would like to make some points regarding this alliance. IMO, this alliance will allow us to get a solid contract and gets rid of the delay in a representational dispute, integration negotiations. Integration negotiations are very important to the overall quality of our lives for the following reasons:

1. There are cities that may reopen with the combination of AA and US flights. While under separate agreements with AA at 15 mainline per day and US at 14 per day to open new or contracted out cities there is a very minimal chance to get that work back. However, if the integration were to occur sooner before later that would give employees chances to get back to where they are from or where they want to be. Even with scope improvements on our side, you still have the AA bankrupt language and the separation of work groups hindering the possible openings.

2. The integration negotiations would allow the combined work group the ability to negotiate as the largest airline in the world. No more 5th largest BS.

I would hope that the employees at US and AA embrace this alliance as a positive that can improve all of our qualities of lives at the new AA on an expedited basis.

This is my wish.

P. Rez

 

[P. REZ]

Honestly, I think there is a fair amount of contempt by Management for Fleet as we are viewed in being overpaid (anything above 6 years) who spend half of their time in the break room. We are "unskilled" and not a public face to the passengers, who so cares if Fleet are part of the "future aspirations" within the Company? Outside of the Leads who have become de facto supervisors, and have some interaction with the public in the jet ways during boarding, Fleet are just faceless, overpaid bag mashers who are obvious targets for outsourcing in the view of the Tempe Boys. What did Doug Parker once said during a town hall meeting to the effect that he didn't want fleet service agents longer than 5 years in seniority, and certainly not to make this a career! Every other work group on the Property are either dealing with the public directly or "skilled" (as measured by licensing and certifications), and thus more difficult to outsource. Parker only kowtowed to the AA FSAs as he wanted all of AA's unions support of the deal, but once that's over, his love affair with AA FSAs will be "fleeting".

Yes, Doug did say something to that effect. That was a moment of truth to the reality of his thoughts about fleet.

P. Rez

 

[Kev3188]

CB,
Before I answer, let me first state the posture of the company of negotiating as the 5th carrier, is a falsehood. They know, as we do, their merger is going through. So enough of the poor me posture. They are about to become the largest carrier with potential huge profit margins. The company wants the union NC to negotiate a contract as the fifth largest... with the assumption they will negotiate an industry leading contract in transition talks. I would hope the NC and the district don't take the bait. The NC and the district were drawn into this strategy at UA. The strategy proved to be fruitless... with an overwhelming rejection of the TA reached. With that being said... we have lost so much the past years not everything can be gained back in one contract. IMO... issues that must be rectified and improved on in Section 6 are the following: Protecting existing work (scope), Wage increases and improvements in vacation / sick accrual. IMO... We have the leverage in section 6. This is where we need to get it done.

YES!

We on the negotiating committee was kinda up against the 8 ball in negotiations. Even though we were in section 6 talks, we also knew due to the MOU the company had with the TWU that we were facing a runoff election soon after the completion of the merger, which would most likely have halted negotiations for awhile. Now we no longer have that hanging over our heads due to the coalition. I am off here for the night, but I appreciate everyone's input on the above question.

CB--

You guys need to slough off the idea(s) that you're "only" the 5th largest, or that your behind the 8 ball, etc.

Go back to the table with your heads held high, and don't take any sh*t. Be "politely belligerent," and hold your ground. Put an end to the idea that "cooperation" and "working together" mean labor always being the one to give in.

The bosses are so used to you guys being malleable that they won't know what to do. Having them off balance is a good thing.

While you're at it, bring some of the rank and file membership along with you.

I would like to make some points regarding this alliance. IMO, this alliance will allow us to get a solid contract and gets rid of the delay in a representational dispute, integration negotiations. Integration negotiations are very important to the overall quality of our lives for the following reasons:

1. There are cities that may reopen with the combination of AA and US flights. While under separate agreements with AA at 15 mainline per day and US at 14 per day to open new or contracted out cities there is a very minimal chance to get that work back. However, if the integration were to occur sooner before later that would give employees chances to get back to where they are from or where they want to be. Even with scope improvements on our side, you still have the AA bankrupt language and the separation of work groups hindering the possible openings.

2. The integration negotiations would allow the combined work group the ability to negotiate as the largest airline in the world. No more 5th largest BS.

All well and good, but even with an alliance, a JCBA is a long way off. The fact is, there is no SLI, no single operating certificate, or anything else. IOW, there's zero chance of using the combined groups flights to meet either CBA's threshold(s) right now.

Alliance or not, as of now, the 141 NC does not represent AA employees. They represent YOU at US. As such, the goal needs to be to secure the best possible language for YOU at US now. The nice thing about the alliance is that it takes the specter of laboratory conditions off the table. That's one less excuse for holding anything back.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I would like to make some points regarding this alliance. IMO, this alliance will allow us to get a solid contract and gets rid of the delay in a representational dispute, integration negotiations. Integration negotiations are very important to the overall quality of our lives for the following reasons:

1. There are cities that may reopen with the combination of AA and US flights. While under separate agreements with AA at 15 mainline per day and US at 14 per day to open new or contracted out cities there is a very minimal chance to get that work back. However, if the integration were to occur sooner before later that would give employees chances to get back to where they are from or where they want to be. Even with scope improvements on our side, you still have the AA bankrupt language and the separation of work groups hindering the possible openings.

2. The integration negotiations would allow the combined work group the ability to negotiate as the largest airline in the world. No more 5th largest BS.

I would hope that the employees at US and AA embrace this alliance as a positive that can improve all of our qualities of lives at the new AA on an expedited basis.

This is my wish.

P. Rez

In this environment where US AIRWAYS is making hundreds of millions in net profits, much more leverage exist than what the TWU had in bankruptcy. Certainly, the IAM and this NC will do better than the TWU's bankrupt contract. Much more leverage is with you. Never mind that a merger, with no representation election involved, gives you guys even more leverage as both you and CB duly noted! Yet, it seems as if you guys are trying to manufacture the idea that your negotiation stance is compromised as the 5th biggest airline. I thought the 5th biggest airline will not exist around September unless some unforeseen roadblock happens??? Parker recognized AMR's contract and agreed to their wages and stock in the company. If he agreed to that in bankruptcy then you guys hit the gold mine and should be able to get a bunch more. The bottom line is this, our members gave up tons and we want it back now! not in some mythical transition talks that take 3-5 additional years. Let's not assume that integration talks with "The World's Biggest Airline" will mean more stations. That path is already well proven against your reasoning. You as a negotiator should assume NOTHING about a mythical transition agreement. I can assure you that Parker will be just as greedy there as he is now. Stop it! Stop talking down to us and speaking for Parker like we are going to get more stations in transition talks. Get it in writing now and let's do this right! I know I would support that stance. Cripes, at United they reduced things down to only 7 stations and tossed in unlimited part time in the mythical transition talks. Those talks went so bad because of management greed and a union leadership that put the interest of the IAM above the members, that it got overwhelmingly rejected as our members understand they are worth more than what was being offered. Remember, Delaney flipped like a pancake and abolished the sUA talks one year after single carrier status because he said "Our position will be stronger as the world's largest airline". Getting a 'mini contract' before single carrier would be worse than the terrible path Delaney chose. regards,

 

[P. REZ]

In this environment where US AIRWAYS is making hundreds of millions in net profits, much more leverage exist than what the TWU had in bankruptcy. Certainly, the IAM and this NC will do better than the TWU's bankrupt contract. Much more leverage is with you. Never mind that a merger, with no representation election involved, gives you guys even more leverage as both you and CB duly noted! Yet, it seems as if you guys are trying to manufacture the idea that your negotiation stance is compromised as the 5th biggest airline. I thought the 5th biggest airline will not exist around September unless some unforeseen roadblock happens??? Parker recognized AMR's contract and agreed to their wages and stock in the company. If he agreed to that in bankruptcy then you guys hit the gold mine and should be able to get a bunch more. The bottom line is this, our members gave up tons and we want it back now! not in some mythical transition talks that take 3-5 additional years. Let's not assume that integration talks with "The World's Biggest Airline" will mean more stations. That path is already well proven against your reasoning. You as a negotiator should assume NOTHING about a mythical transition agreement. I can assure you that Parker will be just as greedy there as he is now. Stop it! Stop talking down to us and speaking for Parker like we are going to get more stations in transition talks. Get it in writing now and let's do this right! I know I would support that stance. Cripes, at United they reduced things down to only 7 stations and tossed in unlimited part time in the mythical transition talks. Those talks went so bad because of management greed and a union leadership that put the interest of the IAM above the members, that it got overwhelmingly rejected as our members understand they are worth more than what was being offered. Remember, Delaney flipped like a pancake and abolished the sUA talks one year after single carrier status because he said "Our position will be stronger as the world's largest airline". Getting a 'mini contract' before single carrier would be worse than the terrible path Delaney chose. regards,

Tim,

Don't confuse my intentions in my post, I do realize that our section 6 negotiations are more important then ever. My point was that the alliance would expedite the whole process which would be a positive for all members involved. The nixing of a threat of a long drawn out representational dispute could only help. Getting a section 6 solid contract followed by getting AA employees and US employees integrated would be sooner by not having the reprensentation dispute. That was my intent. I realize that section 6 has teeth, integration no teeth.

P. Rez