APFA is organizing two days in Washington to attempt to have the FAR's changed so they can get some rest. I must admit that I do not understand. I flew for many years under these same rest provisions and though there were a few times I wasen't happy with short layovers, I survived them. My spouse flew under these rules and never cried over them. If the rules that apply to all part 121 carriers pilots and F/As are only being challenged by APFA, one must hazzard a guess that those same rest rules are OK for everyone but APFA. AFA, ALPA and APA are not challenging the rules. APFA itself flew for many years under these rules. Perhaps someone can explain APFA madness.
Apfa Goes To Washington.
- Thread starter L1011Ret
- Start date
Its one thing to have 8 hours behind the door and another ot have 8 hours and a few mins between block in and block out. Example my 2 day trip this month has 2, 12 hours days with a 8:44 layover. Once you take away the time to get to the hotel get ready the next day and be back there is little time for rest. Take 30 mins to deplane and get to hotel room. Take 45 mins to unpack, tomorrows stuff quick shower and touch up iron job on a shirt. Take 30 mins to shower, shave and make morning roll call for the van. Take the one hour sign in time before the flight. Add 30 more mins because AA doesnt have a van for the crew, we have to take the scheduled van and that gets us in 15 mins before SI. Added all up if you fall asleep instantly you will get a good 5:44 mins sleep for the next 12 hour 3 leg day.
I bid and held the trips. I do it because I wanted it. But if there was a way to schedule me just 2 more hours in thehotel I would be oh so happy. I am all for short layovers, just not the death wish that seems to come with them.
I bid and held the trips. I do it because I wanted it. But if there was a way to schedule me just 2 more hours in thehotel I would be oh so happy. I am all for short layovers, just not the death wish that seems to come with them.
Amen Mikey! My layovers last month were scheduled 8:30 rest. AFter deplaning, waiting for wheelchairs, walking to transport, waiting for hotel room, getting ready for bed, getting ready for pick up, and sign in, I had less than 5 hours!
L1011 with all due respect, I doubt if your conditions were anything like this. Our guys still get 8 hours behind the door.
I heard of one f/a who is streamling by not taking showers during her layovers...I guess whatever it takes.
L1011 with all due respect, I doubt if your conditions were anything like this. Our guys still get 8 hours behind the door.
I heard of one f/a who is streamling by not taking showers during her layovers...I guess whatever it takes.
Garfield1966
Veteran
From what I remember and understand, AA had very few seq that had the min lay over. I thought there was an agreement that we would not schedule min layovers.
I hope they succeed in getting the rules changed but given the lack of government empathy and the prevalence of FA apathy I would not hold my breath.
I hope they succeed in getting the rules changed but given the lack of government empathy and the prevalence of FA apathy I would not hold my breath.
If it is as bad as you say - I can only say - WHY WOULD APFA not know this BEFORE they gave it away. Are they really so out of touch that they can not know that if you only have 8 hours block to block (bad enough with 8 hours behind the door) there is no rest. I think it would be time to use some of that sick time!
I can only sympathize with you - it must be horrible. Maybe being furloughed is not so bad at least I am getting my rest and being good to my body.
I can only sympathize with you - it must be horrible. Maybe being furloughed is not so bad at least I am getting my rest and being good to my body.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #6
I do not doubt that some layovers are difficult because they are too short. What I struggle with is APFA's trying to change industry rules because they gave away protections in negotiations. APFA had lots of choices as I heard in Federal court and most certainly could have negotiated better rest provisions at very small cost Trying to change the FARs because they negotiated them away is attempting to deflect blame from themselves. APFA had a fit when the TWA F/As tried to resolve their issues in Washington. As I mentioned above, APFA was fine with FAR rest provisions until they changed their own rules. So the problem is not with the FARs, it is with APFA. FARs are minimum for safety, not for people's comfortability. I can empathise with short layovers and needing a cup of coffee to get going, but in all these concerns about short layovers I have yet to hear that safety is compromised. Do they suck? Yes, but it seems to me that looking to the government to resolve an APFA issue fails to address the problem of APFA accountability. It could be mentioned that members voted for these rules but given that APFA was ill prepared to negotiate and that AA was applying pressure, that might be a bit unfair. It also seems clear that APFA's communication to the membership about what they were voting on was a bit less than optimal.
Frankly, when the whole story is heard, I doubt that APFA will get the FAR's changed.
Frankly, when the whole story is heard, I doubt that APFA will get the FAR's changed.
jimntx
Veteran
I doubt that APFA expects to to change the FAR. This trip is just window-dressing for the union officers. Then they can say, "We did everything we could to fix the criminally short layovers, but the government just doesn't have any sympathy for flight attendants."
Note that skilled negotiation was not mentioned as a possibility for solving the problem.
Note that skilled negotiation was not mentioned as a possibility for solving the problem.
LiveInAHotel
Veteran
- Nov 5, 2003
- 645
- 0
It wasn't the APFA who gave it away it was the following:jsn25911 said:
1. APFA President- John "numbnuts" Ward
2. APFA Vice-President- Jeff Bott
3. APFA Secretary- Linda Lanning
4. APFA Treasurer- Juan Johnson
These are the National Officers who bent over for AA and gave it to them. All of you who voted to re-elect John Ward, must have been taking the same drugs as our resident ex-scheduler who has a movie coming out this summer.
AC AA LA FA
Veteran
In the RPA-the company was able to sched. minimum rest and not violate our contract as it would have in the past. The FARs are set up as MINIMUM guidelines and do not reflect what is going on now at AA with regards to flying. Our bid lines are being created with many 8 and change layovers-followed by long duty periods. The exception has become the rule-and thats just no safe-PERIOD..
Interpetitation of "8 hours"-reverts back to FARs-It is not clear if the union and company were "on the same page" as I understand when this was formulated-in any case the company is doing is exploiting this for profit-
Read Mikeys post again and tell me if this at all contributes to the operation of a safe and friendly flight-If you think so I have some great ocean front land you may be interested in.............
What ever exposure this practice can get in D.C.-great...any change, welcome..
I plan on attending-this issue is very imporntant to me.
PS-L1011-The pilots DO NOT/HAVE NOT and am sure will not work under these conditions-now or in the past-(at least not at major sched in the US)
Interpetitation of "8 hours"-reverts back to FARs-It is not clear if the union and company were "on the same page" as I understand when this was formulated-in any case the company is doing is exploiting this for profit-
Read Mikeys post again and tell me if this at all contributes to the operation of a safe and friendly flight-If you think so I have some great ocean front land you may be interested in.............
What ever exposure this practice can get in D.C.-great...any change, welcome..
I plan on attending-this issue is very imporntant to me.
PS-L1011-The pilots DO NOT/HAVE NOT and am sure will not work under these conditions-now or in the past-(at least not at major sched in the US)
Very true, indeed. Flight attendants now shown there brilliance and overall desire to win back what jw took from us when extended the voting deadline then running over to CP5 the second he got the vote he needed to sign off on the deal. Vote back in the same idiot who took it away to begin with. jw deserves Then as was posted earlier, window dress's a so called solution, to the problem he himself negotiated and vote rigged.L1011Ret said:
jw took dirty pieces from all the low ball play books. Then played my work group like fools. The man has yet to see on penny of a reduction in pay. Has no cut in vacation or sick time while in office. Sets his own office hours and days. Wonder where he disappears to for days at a time. Union work, I think not. Good cop bad cop, bait and switch, and the Stockholm syndrome It all worked well to his advantage. Scared uninformed f/a's ran to retain there savior, and keep out the evil Tommie who promised to work for the f/as not against them. To train and build the next generation of union workers, Because the brain trust of knowledge of people who wrote and built the contract jw gutted, are close to retiring. She meant to safe guard us from they very type of person she was running against.
LiveInAHotel
Veteran
- Nov 5, 2003
- 645
- 0
AMEN!L1011Ret said:
Garfield1966
Veteran
And I want to be part of a union why?FA Mikey said:
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #15
It is my general sense that unions are formed to get wage increases and prevent management from abusing workers. But then unions get carried away and you have a 1000 page labor agreement that nobody understands. Everything has to be grieved or arbitrated. The end result is lawyers play a big role in everything. The workers are ever more alienated from the higher ups. There is a union where I work but they do not play a big role. If I have a ####, I can start up the chain of command by myself. If I need help I can call the union. I like it better that way, at least I'm in the process rather than calling my union rep everytime something goes wrong.
