Apfa Election

[latreal]

Maybe I don't understand, but what was the benefit or the company not giving the furloughed fa's unlimited recall rights? I understand the no furlough pay benefit to the company. For those of you on this board who think those on the line don't want you to have this, you are wrong. I personally don't understand why Ward did this. Does anyone know for sure if Kitty Solder is challenging the disqualified votes. On their website it says nothing! Backontherighttrack.com

looks to me as if the election is over and just a certain group can't live with the results. Probably wont be the last time.
What is ironic is a certain poster even said that everybody that voted for ward should rot in hell.

NOW THAT WAS RICH, and funny. Talk about playing in the sandbox!lol

 

[AAStew]

I just visited this board for the first time in a while last week. (On sick list, and yes I am really sick), but it seems to me and maybe I am wrong, that it is mostly a few disgruntled furloughees that are making these comments. I understand their frustration but I am not out on the line saying I am glad they are gone so I can (fill in the blank here). I would love to have them back. It wasn't us guys , it wasn't even Wards' fault that the airline industry took a dive. It seems to me that 9/11 got the ball rolling. I dunno, can't we just give it a break?

 

[jimntx]

Well, let's take it one point at a time. And, don't flame back at me. I'm trying to answer your questions as honestly and logically as I can. The questions you asked are ones that have been asked a lot by those of us who are out on the street.

Maybe I don't understand, but what was the benefit or the company not giving the furloughed fa's unlimited recall rights?

The benefit to the company from this little bit of collusion between JW and Jane Allen is simple. It gave the company the opportunity to furlough almost 4,000 of the highest paid flight attendants and maybe keep them off the payroll for 5 years. Then replace them with new hires at new hire pay rates.

Unfortunately for JW and the company, I don't think that is going to be possible. As a working flight attendant, do you believe that the company can go with the current size of the flight attendant corps with the numbers that will be retiring/quitting and not recall more than 900 (plus or minus) of the furloughees? There are only about 900 of us collateral damage nAAtives left before you have to start recalling former TWA flight attendants. All I hear from people on the line is how understaffed you are now. I know of two people here in Dallas that just flat quit because they were sick and tired of being worked until they dropped. They were used to holding a line, and with us gone, they were back on reserve.

I understand the no furlough pay benefit to the company. For those of you on this board who think those on the line don't want you to have this, you are wrong. I personally don't understand why Ward did this.?

Do you really understand the benefit? Do you? JW gave to the company (they weren't asking) a few million one-time dollars when they were looking for on-going, permanent savings. Now put it in context. The current total debt load of the company is in the $21 billion range. The actual benefit to the company was negligible. Can you think of a reason other than spite toward the majority of the last group of furloughees--namely, the former TWA flight attendants? I can't. As a nAAtive who got screwed out of furlough pay, I'm just collateral damage as they used to say in Viet Nam. You know, that innocent rice farmer who just happened to be standing within 2 miles of the strike point of the bunker buster bomb.

Also, you need to be aware if you are close to the bottom of the seniority list among those still working (If you're not, you can do like most senior AA flight attendants, skip this part. You won't care.) By giving up furlough pay, JW has opened the door for the company to use the most junior flight attendants as seasonal help. Now, don't get your knickers in a twist. I'm just saying that it's possible. Now that there is no financial penalty to the company to staff up in June and furlough in September (then staff up in November and furlough in January, etc), they can do it. That was the whole purpose of the unions fighting for furlough pay in the first place. To stop companies with "seasonal" business cycles from using the most junior employees as seasonal help who were never on the payroll long enough to accrue any long-term benefits.

Do you really think that 2 months pay (max) was going to go that far for most furloughed flight attendants? Remember, the presence on the furlough list of flight attendants who were at top-of-scale is a highly unusual (if not unique) occurrence in the history of unions. The people who usually get furloughed are those who are at or near the bottom of the pay scale. I was eligible for 1.5 months at $22.10/hr--about $2300. No, you can't count my vacation pay. I got that, as did all the furloughees. Difference is, we got the JW-reduced amount of vacation. Not what we had actually accrued.

Does anyone know for sure if Kitty Solder is challenging the disqualified votes. On their website it says nothing! Backontherighttrack.com

Don't know about this one, and like you, can't seem to find out. Another member of this forum posted that THB was, in fact, challenging the dues arrears list, but there's been nothing official come out of Useless Blvd. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[AAStew]

Well, thanks for the reply. I did not say the furlough pay thing was ethical, but you yourself explained why it was benefivcial to the company to cancel furlough pay. ANd you are absolutely correct in that we are understaffed, reserve lists are at an all time high, and there is no way they can continue this at this rate without recalling some f/a's. With the 777 payout this fall there should be quite a few retirees. Believe me when I say we all get excited when we hear the occasional rumor that there will be recalls. The company claiims there will be no foreseeable recalls this year, but I think they are lying out their AArse like always. ANd no I am not at the bottom but I am not at the top either, right in the middle right now.
Good luck, and hope to see you on the line soon.

 

[jimntx]

Well, thanks for the reply. I did not say the furlough pay thing was ethical, but you yourself explained why it was benefivcial to the company to cancel furlough pay.

Not to pick nits, but you asked why JW did not fight for unlimited recall. You said you understood the furlough pay issue. But, remember, the company wasn't asking for furlough pay. JW voluntarily gave it to them. The "seasonal help benefit" to the company was just jam on the bread. It wasn't something they expected.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm also hoping that we get recalled before the end of the year. Maybe there will be another recall in time for the Christmas season.

 

[L1011Ret]

At the TWA injunction hearing I attended the furlough recall issue came up. To extend furlough recalls to 7 or 10 years was going to cost several million dollars. That meant a slightly higher pay cut for the remaining F/As. Strangely extending pilot recalls to unlimited was cost neutral. Although I thought it was baloney that is what AA testified to.
The furlough pay question really caused the Judge some consternation as she indicated it was not right. However, APFA elected to penalize furloughees at the expense of people not being furloughed. That caused a bit of an uproar.
Unfortunately I do not remember the numbers exactly but for a slightly bigger paycut, maybe 3% a lof of F/A jobs could have been saved.
Bottom line was those about to be furloughed were grossly penalized in favor of those not being furloughed.
I cannot remember in nearly 40 years in aviation where one group in a union so thoroughly screwed another group.

 

[Flyboy4u]

...and the APFA cant seem to understand why there is no Unity amoung the membership.


I think L10 you hit it right on the nose....The APFA only cared about a select few of its members . As long as WARD remains in office there will be no Unity in this "so called" Union....May justice prevail!




What Unity?

 

[Bob Owens]

At the TWA injunction hearing I attended the furlough recall issue came up. To extend furlough recalls to 7 or 10 years was going to cost several million dollars. That meant a slightly higher pay cut for the remaining F/As. Strangely extending pilot recalls to unlimited was cost neutral. Although I thought it was baloney that is what AA testified to.
The furlough pay question really caused the Judge some consternation as she indicated it was not right. However, APFA elected to penalize furloughees at the expense of people not being furloughed. That caused a bit of an uproar.
Unfortunately I do not remember the numbers exactly but for a slightly bigger paycut, maybe 3% a lof of F/A jobs could have been saved.
Bottom line was those about to be furloughed were grossly penalized in favor of those not being furloughed.
I cannot remember in nearly 40 years in aviation where one group in a union so thoroughly screwed another group.

Why would extending recall cost anything?

 

[L1011Ret]

Can't answer that. The AA director of Labor Relations put out numbers without explanation.

 

[Bob Owens]

Can't answer that. The AA director of Labor Relations put out numbers without explanation.

And our unions took those unsubstantiated numbers as Gospell and had us give concessions according to those numbers.

The biggest joke was that the company claimed they were losing $5 million a day, even though revenues did not go down $5 million a day. I think that revenue for the year went down like $500,000.In other words $1370 a day. It was odd that the company claimed to have lost $988 million in "goodwill" So our paycuts were to make up for money that never existed. "Goodwill" is simply an accounting gimmick to lower taxes. How they came up with the figure of $988 million is not said. THere ewas also an entry on the 10 K about prepaid leases, and a write off for the liability of AAdvantage miles. When advantage miles are written off are they written off as the cost to the company or the value of a full fare, highest priced ticket?

$2.7 million, out of that 5 million a day was "Goodwill" losses. Plus all the other stuff like prepaid leases, AAdvantage miles, accellerated depreciation etc.

We know why our TWU would do this. The company is paying union officials over $3 million a year, money that goes directly into their pockets, for union business. If the union did not give them every penny of what they were asking for these union officials stood to lose their unreported extra company provided paycheck to the sum of between $60,000 to $75,000 a year.

So the choice put before them was simple "Sell this contract and keep the money, or fight for your members and lose this money".

The question is were your union officials under a similar company pay plan?

 

[TWAnr]

Investigators from the Department of Labor have been at the APFA headquarters interviewing current and former national officers, members of the executive committee, unsuccessful candidates and union employees.

On Tuesday, June 15, a manual count of the ballots, which the national ballot committee had certified to have been cast by eligible voters, resulted in the same outcome of John Ward winning the union presidency by five votes.

An investigation is still ongoing regarding the unopened sixteen disputed ballots. The Department of Labor investigators may decide to open and count those or a decision could be made to rerun the election for President or the results could be certified.

 

[latreal]

That is a good thing...hopefully they will have a "do over" and the members that did not vote will vote this time so that everyone will actually realize what the wishes are of the membership!

 

[kirkpatrick]

Elections aren't decided by the will of the majority. They're decided by the will of the majority of those who vote. We had an election, and it was very close. So close that the sixteen uncounted, contested votes would almost certainly reverse the result.

What should happen is that whatever government agency is responsible for handling such things should rule on whether the sixteen votes should count or not. Then we should all shut up and live with the results.

MK

 

[jimntx]

However, I'm almost willing to bet that...

IF the 16 ballots are determined to be valid, are opened and counted,
and
IF the counting of those ballots reverses the decision for the office of President
then
those who supported JW and said the rest of us should just shut up and live the with the results will almost certainly clamor for, at least, another election.

Betcha my lunch money for a week! 😛

 

[L1011Ret]

Bet your lunch money for a year Jim, it will be safe. The DOL has counted the original ballots. Same result, JW by 5. Now they have to make a decision, open the uncounted but valid ballots and let the chips fall where there may or order a new election. If JW should lose by the opened ballots, I'm sure the losers will want a new election. They will cry foul for at least a year.