Kev3188
Veteran
It tells you a lot about the small number of NW/DL members on this site relative to other carriers...
Another US red flag?
- Thread starter Mrs. McFly
- Start date
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #122
The low number of DL/NW employees on this site is because this forum largely caters to labor –mgmt discussions, which for the vast majority of DL employees is not an issue.
The fact that the DL/NW merger legally was finalized four years ago and NW even as a service mark has not existed for more than three years says that in the minds of the vast majority of the world and for DL employees, NW doesn’t exist anymore, including the values and business practices it once practiced.
The fact that there are PMNW employees who participate in multiple chat forums on the web who have recognized that the merger is done and have figured out how to work within the system that DL has created demonstrates why union elections at DL since the merger have validated that the majority of DL employees do not see a need to change the model which DL continues to successfully use to the benefit of DL employees, the company, and the company’s shareholders.
Like it or not, but NW management chose to sell their airline to DL in part because DL had and still has a proven track record of working with labor – unionized and non-union – that has allowed DL to avoid hundreds of millions of dollars in losses that have occurred due to labor-mgmt discord at other airlines.
When you combine DL’s ability to work w/ labor with its aggressive strategic focus which has allowed it to gain enormous amounts of revenue from other legacy carriers that have been too focused on resolving internal labor-mgmt issues and it is not hard to see why DL’s presence in the legacy carrier segment is indeed a subject that network carrier managements cannot avoid, and network carrier employees who want to understand the context in which they work cannot avoid discussing.
There are equally small number of discussions on this forum regarding WN and UA.... in large part because the labor situation at those airlines is stable.
The vast majority of the discussions on this forum involve labor issues at AA and US, probably the two airlines with the greatest labor challenges in the industry.
Many DL employees, including PMNW employees, have indicated on other chat forums that they are no longer interested in discussing the merits of the PMNW labor-mgmt model which DL employees have largely chosen not to adopt.
As uncomfortable as it may be to acknowledge, DL has succeeded in adding new routes from New York City in the largest markets for every other network carrier and, just six months after the LGA slot swap, is flying mainline aircraft in some of the top markets for AA, UA, and US and has already gained 25% market share in just the first several months in some of those markets.
Even though AA is following UA’s path in reducing its trip costs and reducing the size of the transcon markets it can profitably serve due to the presence of low cost carriers, and thus reduces its total revenues in the market, DL has chosen to maintain its size, compete for the whole market, and to improve its product to compete with whatever carrier enters those markets, some of the largest markets in the US and some of the historically largest markets for UA and AA. The same principle applies in other markets, including former hub markets for other legacy carriers in which DL is now the largest network carrier.
Given that this thread is about AA and US, it is absolutely relevant to understand how successfully both carriers have been and will be either separately or as a merged airline with Delta and with the low cost carriers with which network carriers must either compete or be put out of business. The ability of legacy carriers including AA and US to continue to increase employee pay and ensure job security is directly related to those company’s ability to protect and generate revenue.
Given that AA and US both have used and are using the same model of legacy carrier employee relations that has resulted in larger job losses and greater pay cuts than to employees of DL, then you better believe it matters to the discussion to talk about what is really happening in the industry in which AA and US have to compete.
There are a lot of AA employees who, like me, don’t intend to live under a rock and ignore the realities of the world in which they live.
Those who find it difficult to hear the realities I present are probably the ones who cling to a system that will only result in continued revenue losses for their employee and continued pay and benefit cuts and job losses for themselves and their coworkers.
Despite the belief that some people on this forum, in union leadership at AA, and at US have, these key questions remain unresolved which is probably why there is no more likelihood that AA and US will merge than there was in Nov 2011 when AA entered BK.
The fact that the DL/NW merger legally was finalized four years ago and NW even as a service mark has not existed for more than three years says that in the minds of the vast majority of the world and for DL employees, NW doesn’t exist anymore, including the values and business practices it once practiced.
The fact that there are PMNW employees who participate in multiple chat forums on the web who have recognized that the merger is done and have figured out how to work within the system that DL has created demonstrates why union elections at DL since the merger have validated that the majority of DL employees do not see a need to change the model which DL continues to successfully use to the benefit of DL employees, the company, and the company’s shareholders.
Like it or not, but NW management chose to sell their airline to DL in part because DL had and still has a proven track record of working with labor – unionized and non-union – that has allowed DL to avoid hundreds of millions of dollars in losses that have occurred due to labor-mgmt discord at other airlines.
When you combine DL’s ability to work w/ labor with its aggressive strategic focus which has allowed it to gain enormous amounts of revenue from other legacy carriers that have been too focused on resolving internal labor-mgmt issues and it is not hard to see why DL’s presence in the legacy carrier segment is indeed a subject that network carrier managements cannot avoid, and network carrier employees who want to understand the context in which they work cannot avoid discussing.
There are equally small number of discussions on this forum regarding WN and UA.... in large part because the labor situation at those airlines is stable.
The vast majority of the discussions on this forum involve labor issues at AA and US, probably the two airlines with the greatest labor challenges in the industry.
Many DL employees, including PMNW employees, have indicated on other chat forums that they are no longer interested in discussing the merits of the PMNW labor-mgmt model which DL employees have largely chosen not to adopt.
As uncomfortable as it may be to acknowledge, DL has succeeded in adding new routes from New York City in the largest markets for every other network carrier and, just six months after the LGA slot swap, is flying mainline aircraft in some of the top markets for AA, UA, and US and has already gained 25% market share in just the first several months in some of those markets.
Even though AA is following UA’s path in reducing its trip costs and reducing the size of the transcon markets it can profitably serve due to the presence of low cost carriers, and thus reduces its total revenues in the market, DL has chosen to maintain its size, compete for the whole market, and to improve its product to compete with whatever carrier enters those markets, some of the largest markets in the US and some of the historically largest markets for UA and AA. The same principle applies in other markets, including former hub markets for other legacy carriers in which DL is now the largest network carrier.
Given that this thread is about AA and US, it is absolutely relevant to understand how successfully both carriers have been and will be either separately or as a merged airline with Delta and with the low cost carriers with which network carriers must either compete or be put out of business. The ability of legacy carriers including AA and US to continue to increase employee pay and ensure job security is directly related to those company’s ability to protect and generate revenue.
Given that AA and US both have used and are using the same model of legacy carrier employee relations that has resulted in larger job losses and greater pay cuts than to employees of DL, then you better believe it matters to the discussion to talk about what is really happening in the industry in which AA and US have to compete.
There are a lot of AA employees who, like me, don’t intend to live under a rock and ignore the realities of the world in which they live.
Those who find it difficult to hear the realities I present are probably the ones who cling to a system that will only result in continued revenue losses for their employee and continued pay and benefit cuts and job losses for themselves and their coworkers.
Despite the belief that some people on this forum, in union leadership at AA, and at US have, these key questions remain unresolved which is probably why there is no more likelihood that AA and US will merge than there was in Nov 2011 when AA entered BK.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #124
I think the DL-NW merger was set when AF bought/merged with KLM. Yes, Richard fled the scene during NW's BK to avoid being the hatchet man which left him as a potential leader of the merged airline, esp. since DL's pre-BK leadership team destroyed whatever DL goodwill existed... and even though Grinstein returned to mend the wounds he helped create (he brought Mullins to DL), G had no desire to run an airline.
So, yes, NW had decent leadership candidates of which Richard turned out to be there to catch the bouquet.
There are indeed NW people beyond Richard who have moved into leadership positions at DL and who have adapted to a very different culture.
So, yes, NW had decent leadership candidates of which Richard turned out to be there to catch the bouquet.
There are indeed NW people beyond Richard who have moved into leadership positions at DL and who have adapted to a very different culture.
FlyUs
Veteran
- Jul 28, 2004
- 610
- 45
WT.. just wondering what your views are about why US never pursued NW for a merger while they were in bankruptcy. It seems odd to me that US wanted to merge with Delta with so many anit-trust issues. AA and US will be a formidable competitor against UA, DL and SW if this merger does happen
Kev3188
Veteran
(sigh)
The much more simple- and I suppose less word-count worthy- reason is that this site has always been dominated by US (employees and FF's both), with AA in recent years catching up. Another site I frequent is dominated by by sCO employees, relative to other carriers. That's just how it is. It's not a testament to the "superior employment experience" at DL, but rather to the small pool of people from the Widget on here in the first place.
BTW, If anyone wants to see active NW/DL employees talking about the poor state of labor relations, the pages are out there- it's just not on this site.
USAV has simply never had that many NW or DL employees as members, and of those that are on here, not that many post frequently- or may have at one time, but got tired of threads being taken over. Still others have moved away from the industry, and have chosen to not look back.
The much more simple- and I suppose less word-count worthy- reason is that this site has always been dominated by US (employees and FF's both), with AA in recent years catching up. Another site I frequent is dominated by by sCO employees, relative to other carriers. That's just how it is. It's not a testament to the "superior employment experience" at DL, but rather to the small pool of people from the Widget on here in the first place.
BTW, If anyone wants to see active NW/DL employees talking about the poor state of labor relations, the pages are out there- it's just not on this site.
USAV has simply never had that many NW or DL employees as members, and of those that are on here, not that many post frequently- or may have at one time, but got tired of threads being taken over. Still others have moved away from the industry, and have chosen to not look back.
yoyodyne
Veteran
Kev3188
Veteran
No, I had it right the first time. Thanks though...
silverbird007
Senior
Just block WT from showing up on your computer, I did it a few weeks ago, its like a totally different forum, ITs ABOUT AA! just like the title says, I dont have anything against Delta so much, but I also dont give a crap about WTs posts dont want to read his endless Delta Delta Delta propoganda! Ill bet he sleeps with a Delta toy airplane every night. LOL maybe even a blowup version. Just block him !
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #131
No actually, it is not just about AA….. we’d all like to believe the world the way we choose to see it is all the world that exists – but that is simply not true. Failure to recognize that there is another world far bigger than our own that absolutely impacts our own is precisely why so many people can’t cope with the reality that is today’s complex, divided world.
You can block me if you want but it won’t change the fact that AA’s revenue has been shrinking for years at the hands of low fare carriers such as WN and more aggressive network carriers, principally DL.
It is no surprise that AA employees complain about the pay and benefit cuts they are being forced to take when AA revenue is shrinking in key competitive markets, even though the company says they intend to grow the airline coming out of BK. Those words ring rather hollow as AA implements a plan to walk away from 30-40% of the transcon market, making it easier for carriers such as B6, VX, and DL to gain even the full fare passengers that AA says it wants. You need only look at revenue data on the JFK transcons to see that UA’s strategy of siphoning off the top X% of high value passengers has only resulted in a stronger B6 and VX and allowed DL to grow its revenue base.
And those revenue differences aren’t limited to one market. PIT and STL are two former US and AA hubs in which DL has been aggressively growing. AA and US walked away from those two hubs and someone has moved in to fill the gap. DL is within a couple percent of now overtaking AA as the largest network carrier at STL while in PIT DL has now passed WN as the 2[sup]nd[/sup] largest carrier in terms of boardings ahead of WN but behind US. Do you not think it matters to employee compensation and job protection if one of your largest network carrier competitors is aggressively chasing your key markets and customers?
At the time of the CO-UA merger, UA became about 4% larger than DL. For over a year, UA has been lagging DL in RASM growth and has kept seats in the market – and maintained a larger airline even while DL has been slowly pulling out seats in order to keep the RASM up. DL’s RASM has been growing fast enough to offset the reduced capacity – in other words, DL is flying less but gaining close to the same amount of revenue or more.
In the most recent quarter, based on revenue, DL became a larger airline than UA by just a tad. But the trend is obvious. DL is managing capacity in order to obtain higher total revenues even on reduced capacity while UA, which is still struggling with merger integration – and can’t afford to get rid of thousands of employees – is flying too much capacity and seeing its revenues shrink because the few extra percent of capacity that UA is offering is enough to cut UA’s ability to generate higher fares.
And that is just the revenue side of the equation. Did you also notice that DL is forecasting all-in fuel costs for the 4th quarter of $3.15-3.20 while UA on the same basis is forecasting $3.30/gallon? Do you not think a 10 cent difference in the price of fuel between two carriers as large as DL and UA won't have an impact on earnings - and thus what employees can expect. AA didn't report 4th quarter expected fuel costs but their monthly fuel costs were lower than UA's while DL didn't report a comparable monthly number. WIth fuel being 35% or more of an airline's costs, it doesn't take too many cents worth of a difference in price to dramatically change the financial results of the company as well as the future employees might have.
Now, tell me how relevant it is to a labor discussion and to the salaries of individual employees if one company is managing capacity and keeping revenues flat or growing on a smaller cost base while their largest competitor is growing revenues and reducing costs.
It is precisely these key revenue and cost issues that some people on here don’t want to talk about and which some carriers are doing far better than others but which make all the difference in the world in the ability to get pay raises, protect jobs, and talk about whatever future AA or US might have alone or together.
Ignore the real world that exists beyond the one you want to see at your own peril.
I can assure you that there are a lot of other people who don’t want to go through life wearing blindfolds.
Don’t really know why that never got off the ground…. Could be that NW recognized that US still didn’t provide the size NW needed long term to compete, esp. if it set up other mergers long term.
Remember also that CO and NW were well attached and the greatest expectations among NW and CO employees were that the two would eventually merge.
Problem was that if you play out game theory, NW and CO could have set off a round of mergers in which they would have quickly been trumped by mergers involving AA, DL, and UA.
CO and NW both ultimately merged with one of the big 3, which is exactly what US has been trying to do for a decade as well.
True that certain boards have different airline participants but this forum did have a lot of PMNW and PMDL activity… it has all but died down except for a few discussions about DL’s vs NW’s labor- mgmt model, a subject which is settled in the vast majority of DL employees’ minds and which multiple people have said on other chat forums they no longer wish to discuss.
What DL is today is what it is ….. don’t underestimate that there was a very calculated effort on DL and NW”s part to allow DL to maintain DL’s historic labor mgmt structure.
I’m not very much interested in continuing to discuss it, but if you want to, that is exactly what does belong on the DL board because for now it has little relevance to any other airline.
Widget heads published a lot of highly proprietary data and used DL trademarks without respect to the owner. It was also far less a discussion forum than a source of interesting data which only people who had access to DL internal information could have obtained – which is why so many people outside of the company found the site so interesting.
Kev3188
Veteran
Now you're telling people which topic is appropriate for which board?
Oh, that's rich...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #133
I'm simply saying that discussions regarding DL's labor practices have little implication for other airlines. The far greater impact by DL WRT to other airlines is revenue and competition related.
If you would like to discuss DL related labor issues on other forums, I am certainly not going to stop you.... but neither will I be accused of discussing things on non-DL forums that have no relevance to those airlines.
But relevance is of course subjective and you may choose to see things differently.... or as you might say, YMMV.
If you would like to discuss DL related labor issues on other forums, I am certainly not going to stop you.... but neither will I be accused of discussing things on non-DL forums that have no relevance to those airlines.
But relevance is of course subjective and you may choose to see things differently.... or as you might say, YMMV.
Oh my god. I just deleted WT and half the messages went away! Happy days are here again. I finally had enough of his making every post a Delta gospel. He convinces himself they should be in every discussion. Not anymore. I wish more would do the same, so he would go away and play with himself.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #135
except that I am not going away.... you can either figure out how to participate in the discussion with the facts on the table or you will be the one that is left out while I continue to say what needs to be said.
Your version of peace seems a bit warped.
don't let the door hit you on the backside...
Your version of peace seems a bit warped.
don't let the door hit you on the backside...
