AMFA......read on

[MetalMover]

So what happens if AMFA doesn't get enough cards to trigger an election?. Seniority negotiated prevails!
 
US guys are not going to risk a MBA process where they won't know where they stand. Tims point as, i read it,  is that the arbitrator may say 2-1 because of the size in memberships and AA has more. 
 
This is why AMFA doesn't have enough cards yet from the US side. Yah Think?

If the alliance goes down, and it becomes a battle between the TWU and IAM,,,guess who wins?      TWU....even the TWU haters will not vote the IAM...Sheer size dictates the TWU outweighs the iAM..

 

[mike33]

If the alliance goes down, and it becomes a battle between the TWU and IAM,,,guess who wins?      TWU....even the TWU haters will not vote the IAM...Sheer size dictates the TWU outweighs the iAM..

Lets not assume. There are many facets to that outcome.

 

[1AA]

If the alliance goes down, and it becomes a battle between the TWU and IAM,,,guess who wins?      TWU....even the TWU haters will not vote the IAM...Sheer size dictates the TWU outweighs the iAM..

The IAM would be able to file for an election if they can some how convince a certain number of twu guys to sign IAM cards. How many total cards are needed to file? How many cards from the twu side are needed in addition to the usair guys? This all looks too familiar from the teamsters failed drive here at AA. When you get guys that say I want amfa. I want the twu. I want the IAM. What do you think the end result would be? Another frigging mess. Do we want to rid ourselves of the twu and IAM? If yes is your answer then fill out an amfa card and stay focused on removing the twu and IAM once and for all.

 

[Tim Nelson]

You stated - "The MBA exception applies to all representational disputes by definition."
 
You are wrong by that very definition
 

 
If AMFA were to win a representational dispute at the new AA would it satisfy this requirement? No. AMFA didn't represent AA and didn't represent US, they could not trigger this exception.
 
The real example of this exception is what we at UAL are currently subject to. The mechanics at sUAL & sCAL were both ibt PRIOR to the merger, as such, by definition, we are subject to the ibts SLI policy - and as of this moment still do not have a combined seniority list

you seem really stuck on the whole "prior" situation. You have failed to consider the situations where a union didnt priorly represent. Ok, lets look at it like this then, are you saying that amfa, should it get in, will have to arbitrate against itself? Do u see why your misinterpretation is silly?

 

[MetalMover]

The IAM would be able to file for an election if they can some how convince a certain number of twu guys to sign IAM cards. How many total cards are needed to file? How many cards from the twu side are needed in addition to the usair guys? This all looks too familiar from the teamsters failed drive here at AA. When you get guys that say I want amfa. I want the twu. I want the IAM. What do you think the end result would be? Another frigging mess. Do we want to rid ourselves of the twu and IAM? If yes is your answer then fill out an amfa card and stay focused on removing the twu and IAM once and for all.

I agree....I was giving a hypothetical regarding a battle between the TWU and IAM....Of course i want AMFA, 

 

[MetalMover]

Lets not assume. There are many facets to that outcome.

 As much as I want to be rid of the TWU, i would NOT vote for the IAM....even if it means being stuck with the TWU.....Sad, I know.And there are quite a few AMFA supporters like myself.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

you seem really stuck on the whole "prior" situation. You have failed to consider the situations where a union didnt priorly represent. Ok, lets look at it like this then, are you saying that amfa, should it get in, will have to arbitrate against itself? Do u see why your misinterpretation is silly?

 
Whats silly is your continued misinterpretation.
 
Again, the law as written...
 

 
(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each
of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent’s internal policies regarding
integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this
section

 
Does AMFA represent the mechanics at AA? No.
 
Does AMFA represent the mechanics at US? No.
 
By law for the exception to apply AMFA has to represent the craft and class "at each
of the covered air carriers" they do not therefor this exception does not apply. Simply winning on the new AA doesn't fulfill this requirement.
 
 
As to your comment about  AMFA arbitrating against itself, why is it such an outlandish idea. The pilots union at AA/US  APA is proposing a 3 way arbitration with USAPA-east & USAPA-west.
 
Its simply a CBA deferring a decisions concerning two groups it represents to a neutral party.
 
If it came to pass that AMFA wins at AA, and seniority has yet to be decided, why wouldn't they let the former TWU & IAM chosen reps make their case in front of a neutral arbitrator?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

So what happens if AMFA doesn't get enough cards to trigger an election?. Seniority negotiated prevails!
 
US guys are not going to risk a MBA process where they won't know where they stand. Tims point as, i read it,  is that the arbitrator may say 2-1 because of the size in memberships and AA has more. 
 
This is why AMFA doesn't have enough cards yet from the US side. Yah Think?

 
So is that what this all boils down to...fear-mongering?
 
If seniority has already been negotiated between the IAM and TWU, AMFA winning an election tomorrow won't change that.

 

[1AA]

Lets see the IAM represented mechanics are the only mechanics out of the majors that have a pension.
 
AA, UA, WN and DL all have 401k(s) and you do realize a 401k was not designed to be a pension, it was to supplement a pension and Social Security?

Nice try but I have a pension and it pays more staying with AA than the USAir pension that was dumped on the PBGC. My 401K contributes more from the company and is compounded for OT and Holiday Pay as well as additional hours worked. The IAM pension is a flat rate. We all got screwed by having our DP plans either frozen or terminated but dont make it sound like the IAM pension is the best deal out there.
The IAM openly wants the AA guys to participate in the IAM plan. Why would I or any AA guy do that? Take a cut in contributions and then have conditions placed on my pension on how or when to pay out. No thanks.

 

[1AA]

 As much as I want to be rid of the TWU, i would NOT vote for the IAM....even if it means being stuck with the TWU.....Sad, I know.And there are quite a few AMFA supporters like myself.

Well the only way the IAM can get a vote is for TWU guys to fill out IAM cards if the opportunity reaches that level. Make sure you tell your fellow TWU guys to stay away from filling out IAM cards. If the IAM does not get a certain number of cards (number unknown) they will be out. Then we AA/USAir can focus on AMFA. The one thing the TWU and IAM want to do is create chaos among the two groups and confuse us with lies, threats and intimidation. The unions are fighting hands over fists for their own interest not the members. Do we really want them to get away with this? They both want to stay on the property with the Alliance. If they can create enough chaos and convince us to vote for the alliance they may have an internal vote with enough intimidated guys to vote yes for it. Then they can present it to the NMB and convince them to sign off on on it. Do we really want this to go this far?

 

[700UW]

Nice try but I have a pension and it pays more staying with AA than the USAir pension that was dumped on the PBGC. My 401K contributes more from the company and is compounded for OT and Holiday Pay as well as additional hours worked. The IAM pension is a flat rate. We all got screwed by having our DP plans either frozen or terminated but dont make it sound like the IAM pension is the best deal out there.
The IAM openly wants the AA guys to participate in the IAM plan. Why would I or any AA guy do that? Take a cut in contributions and then have conditions placed on my pension on how or when to pay out. No thanks.

You have a frozen pension that will not accrue anymore money, now do you?
 
And a 401k was not designed to be a pension and you 401k is not federally protected, ask all the guys at NW and UA how much they lost in their 401ks from the stock being wiped out, and US also in the first chapter 11.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Whats silly is your continued misinterpretation.
 
Again, the law as written...
 

 
Does AMFA represent the mechanics at AA? No.
 
Does AMFA represent the mechanics at US? No.
 
By law for the exception to apply AMFA has to represent the craft and class "at each
of the covered air carriers" they do not therefor this exception does not apply. Simply winning on the new AA doesn't fulfill this requirement.
 
 
As to your comment about  AMFA arbitrating against itself, why is it such an outlandish idea. The pilots union at AA/US  APA is proposing a 3 way arbitration with USAPA-east & USAPA-west.
 
Its simply a CBA deferring a decisions concerning two groups it represents to a neutral party.
 
If it came to pass that AMFA wins at AA, and seniority has yet to be decided, why wouldn't they let the former TWU & IAM chosen reps make their case in front of a neutral arbitrator?

what? Ive directed you to the law (yes, amfa or the association would represent all mx after an election and be entitled to exception), ive applied current cases to show you (see iam and afa at united), and asked you to cite one representation dispute that backs up your incorrect opinion.

Do u know what a representation dispute is?

 

[1AA]

You have a frozen pension that will not accrue anymore money, now do you?
 
And a 401k was not designed to be a pension and you 401k is not federally protected, ask all the guys at NW and UA how much they lost in their 401ks from the stock being wiped out, and US also in the first chapter 11.

Listen we discussed this numerous times and other posters including Bob Owens broke down the comparison of the two and you are the only one here on this forum that favors anything the IAM has to offer. Why not start a new thread on the IAM pension. I am sure you will have a field day debating it. This thread is about AMFA and AMFA does not deal in pensions and neither does the TWU.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

what? Ive directed you to the law (yes, amfa or the association would represent all mx after an election and be entitled to exception), ive applied current cases to show you (see iam and afa at united), and asked you to cite one representation dispute that backs up your incorrect opinion.

Do u know what a representation dispute is?

 
You haven't the first clue - tell me, how was seniority handled in the case of UAL (IAM-AFA) flight attendants? Be specific.

 

[Rogallo]

ask all the guys at NW and UA how much they lost in their 401ks from the stock being wiped out, and US also in the first chapter 11.

 
Was company stock their only option for their 401k?