AMFA......read on

[TRAVIS]

removed by me

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Mike is actually right.  With the Association, all mechanics know where they stand since the MBA allows the Association the exception rule.  So everyone will now exactly where they stand on seniority with the Association. IMO, that is why I support the Association as an IAM member.  On the other hand, if AMFA gets voted in, then it could lend more weight towards the TWU members. To be sure, it will be up to AMFA, NOT the MBA since AMFA would represent all mx.  Again, the exception rule that you forgot about.  God forbid, in any case, that it goes to a 3rd party.  The MBA was invoked at Southwest and it gave TWU members privilege over IAM members in the same craft. Not as much as the TWU members wanted, but enough to make any USair member uncomfortable about screwing with the Association.  Whatever the outcome, make sure you stay away from the IAMPF. It sucks balls.

 
I think you should do some more reading on the MBA.
 
Mike is wrong, AMFA still falls under MBA regardless, I've forgotten about nothing.

 

[TRAVIS]

I think this is one reason why workers should stay away from the IAM since it is of ill repute that the IAM effs over working people by effing their pension if they vote in another union.  The problem is that the IAM is so self centered and all about itself instead of those who it represents.  I think AMFA ought to copy all of your post about this and if it doesn't scare the hell out of all TWU members then something is wrong.  The Association has already said it will focus on the IAMPF.  Personally, as a member of the IAMPF I know it blows balls.  It's a scandal of the member, the trustees slash future rates, and the only reason why it is green is because the IAM trustees were the first union pension people who whacked future contributions, twice, to keep it green.  God only knows how many times in the future it will whack it, and I pray that all TWU members are spared from this terrible Nazi like pension fund that threatens workers, just like you did, by saying "F*ck" all of you if you don't keep the IAM.  What union worth its salt would tell workers and write letters to workers telling them they are going to Eff over the pension of the workers if they vote to get out of the IAM????    The reality is that what you have said is actually true as I see the IAM effing over the mechanics if they vote for amfa but I also see litigation from attorneys to recover any damages that the IAM may cause upon the working people.  Shame on you 700 and shame on the IAM for trying to take the retirement hostage.   That's the problem with these shitty unions today.  It's all about them and not the worker. If AMFA gets voted in then it is because of you and the shitty job that the TWU and IAM have done.

spot on.

 

[1AA]

Mike is actually right.  With the Association, all mechanics know where they stand since the MBA allows the Association the exception rule.  So everyone will now exactly where they stand on seniority with the Association. IMO, that is why I support the Association as an IAM member.  On the other hand, if AMFA gets voted in, then it could lend more weight towards the TWU members. To be sure, it will be up to AMFA, NOT the MBA since AMFA would represent all mx.  Again, the exception rule that you forgot about.  God forbid, in any case, that it goes to a 3rd party.  The MBA was invoked at Southwest and it gave TWU members privilege over IAM members in the same craft. Not as much as the TWU members wanted, but enough to make any USair member uncomfortable about screwing with the Association.  Whatever the outcome, make sure you stay away from the IAMPF. It sucks balls.

The MOU agreement already covered seniority integration and approved by the BK judge. Regardless which union will be administering the contract at the time the integration process has started, the agreement will be followed. Both unions agreed to a merger in seniority based on company and or classification dates.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The MOU agreement already covered seniority integration and approved by the BK judge. Regardless which union will be administering the contract at the time the integration process has started, the agreement will be followed. Both unions agreed to a merger in seniority based on company and or classification dates.

 
True.
 
Further, the exception that is continuing to be erroneously alluded to is when one union represents both groups in a merger situation that unions internal policies for SLI may be followed under MBA.
 
This language is only applicable if the union in question represented BOTH groups PRIOR to the merger - AMFA did not, therefore they are subject to all previously existing contractual obligations as well as all provisions of the MBA

 

[TRAVIS]

If AMFA was voted in they will have their hands full. They will have to administer the current IAM contract to the US guys and administer the current TWU contract to the AA guys until a TA or NEW Contract is negotiated for all.
At this point it's the same thing we have now the IAM/TWU association, So changing unions at this point will not slow down nothing....
IT'S TIME FOR A CHANGE BOYS AND NOW IS THE TIME WITH THE COMPANY ROLLING IN LARGE PROFITS!!!!
The IAM could not get it done so wake up.. The company is not going to give you OLD FARTS A GOLDEN PARACHUTE SO IT'S TIME TO PUT NEW BLOOD IN TO FIGHT FOR ALL THE AMT'S OF BOTH AIRLINES. 

 

[mike33]

 
I think you should do some more reading on the MBA.
 
Mike is wrong, AMFA still falls under MBA regardless, I've forgotten about nothing.

The legislation, known as the McCaskill-Bond statute, was signed into law in December 2007 and is codified at 49 U.S.C. § 42112.
The statute applies when two or more air carriers are involved in a "covered transaction," described as:

1. A transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air carrier; and which
2. Involves the transfer of ownership or control of—
3. 
   50 percent or more of the equity securities (as defined in section 101 of title 11,   United States Code) of an air carrier; or
4. 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of the air carrier. 49 U.S.C. § 42112

Does ABC above apply in order to involk MBA?
 
 
 If the covered transaction involves employee groups represented by the same union, the statute provides that the union's internal merger policies apply exclusively, with no carrier involvement, except as to whether it will accept and implement the result of the integration process (i.e., the combined seniority list)
 
Would the Association be considered as if it were 2 entities which negotiated and agreed to a process already without arbitration?
 
Get enough cards first and then we will see if AMFA's entry involks the MBA where the associations wouldn't. it is already agreed to. Fair and equitable (According to MBA) does not mean seniority by date necessarily. The TWU and IAM have agreed to seniority issues already. This is why US knows where they stand and you may not get enough cards from the US side.

 

[TRAVIS]

BOO!

 

[IAM Member Here]

 
True.
 
Further, the exception that is continuing to be erroneously alluded to is when one union represents both groups in a merger situation that unions internal policies for SLI may be followed under MBA.
 
This language is only applicable if the union in question represented BOTH groups PRIOR to the merger - AMFA did not, therefore they are subject to all previously existing contractual obligations as well as all provisions of the MBA

That is incorrect. "Prior" has nothing to do with it. If there is a representational dispute that is triggered, as a result of the merger, then whichever union wins an election is free to use its own internal procedures. That's the law. And, of course, that is exactly what happened at United and all other airline cases.  At United, the AFA is free to use its own seniority rules even though it didn't represent any sCO flight attendants.  Same with the IAM with the ticket agents [non union], and ramp [IBT].  
 
I think the biggest problem that AMFA has is that it either doesn't understand NMB rules, and MBA law, and has made serious embarrassing missteps, with the most recent one being last year when it 'assumed' it had more time, or AMFA is being intellectually dishonest.   It screws itself in organizing drives.  And it lies out its ass about the processes.  Just tell everyone that you couldn't get 50% of the cards, don't claim you have to shift the campaign due to some separate gate agent dispute.  AMFA screws itself with such statements, it would do much better being honest and focusing on its craft advantages and more focused representation than the Association could have with two unions representing one group.
 
But 700 is right about the IAMPF.  If the mechanics vote out the IAM, then  the I'll Ask Management Union may play hard ball and team up with management and refuse to make the IAMPF available. It's the stuff that lawsuits are made of.  So, when AMFA says that mechanics can't possibly lose their future company contributions into the IAMPF, such a statement is incredibly irresponsible.  Yes.  Yes it can happen.  In fact, I think it is probable since the IAM will want to protect itself from other groups doing the same thing. Do I think it would be of ill repute on the IAM's part? Yes.  But the IAM knows any lawsuit would take an extended time and that AMFA would eventually come to an agreement with management, and such agreement will mean that AMFA would have to drop any suits.  Nobody really knows the outcome but it is asinine and irresponsible to tell mechanics, "The IAM can't do that".  It can, and the company would love to stop making contributions.  It may not even be a violation of the agreement if it does, but if it is, then AMFA will have most likely settled a new TA with management anyways.  Whatever happens, expect a mess with that since the IAM US AIRWAYS mechanics chose to have terrible non protective language in their contract regarding that item.  Remember, I think we can all agree that management is more comfortable with the Associaiton but will fight AMFA every step of the way.  Anyone voting for AMFA should expect more than just pension battles.  In the long run, it may be worth the fight since the current unions have done a poor job [to say the least], but it will take years to straighten out the mess.
 
Mike 33 is right about the MBA, due to the exception clause which still applies, provided there was a representation dispute.  One clarification, someone noted that there is already a seniority integration agreement.  I haven't actually read that seniority agreement in such a long time but I assumed it was an agreement between both unions regarding the future association, and not necessarily an agreement with management between the IAM or TWU.  If I'm incorrect about that, and management signed a non conditional seniority integration agreement, then I stand corrected and it won't matter if AMFA or the Association represents the mechanics as the agreement will still stand.

 

[TWU informer]

That is incorrect. "Prior" has nothing to do with it. If there is a representational dispute that is triggered, as a result of the merger, then whichever union wins an election is free to use its own internal procedures. That's the law. And, of course, that is exactly what happened at United and all other airline cases.  At United, the AFA is free to use its own seniority rules even though it didn't represent any sCO flight attendants.  Same with the IAM with the ticket agents [non union], and ramp [IBT].  
 
I think the biggest problem that AMFA has is that it either doesn't understand NMB rules, and MBA law, and has made serious embarrassing missteps, with the most recent one being last year when it 'assumed' it had more time, or AMFA is being intellectually dishonest.   It screws itself in organizing drives.  And it lies out its ass about the processes.  Just tell everyone that you couldn't get 50% of the cards, don't claim you have to shift the campaign due to some separate gate agent dispute.  AMFA screws itself with such statements, it would do much better being honest and focusing on its craft advantages and more focused representation than the Association could have with two unions representing one group.
 
But 700 is right about the IAMPF.  If the mechanics vote out the IAM, then  the I'll Ask Management Union may play hard ball and team up with management and refuse to make the IAMPF available. It's the stuff that lawsuits are made of.  So, when AMFA says that mechanics can't possibly lose their future company contributions into the IAMPF, such a statement is incredibly irresponsible.  Yes.  Yes it can happen.  In fact, I think it is probable since the IAM will want to protect itself from other groups doing the same thing. Do I think it would be of ill repute on the IAM's part? Yes.  But the IAM knows any lawsuit would take an extended time and that AMFA would eventually come to an agreement with management, and such agreement will mean that AMFA would have to drop any suits.  Nobody really knows the outcome but it is asinine and irresponsible to tell mechanics, "The IAM can't do that".  It can, and the company would love to stop making contributions.  It may not even be a violation of the agreement if it does, but if it is, then AMFA will have most likely settled a new TA with management anyways.  Whatever happens, expect a mess with that since the IAM US AIRWAYS mechanics chose to have terrible non protective language in their contract regarding that item.  Remember, I think we can all agree that management is more comfortable with the Associaiton but will fight AMFA every step of the way.  Anyone voting for AMFA should expect more than just pension battles.  In the long run, it may be worth the fight since the current unions have done a poor job [to say the least], but it will take years to straighten out the mess.
 
Mike 33 is right about the MBA, due to the exception clause which still applies, provided there was a representation dispute.  One clarification, someone noted that there is already a seniority integration agreement.  I haven't actually read that seniority agreement in such a long time but I assumed it was an agreement between both unions regarding the future association, and not necessarily an agreement with management between the IAM or TWU.  If I'm incorrect about that, and management signed a non conditional seniority integration agreement, then I stand corrected and it won't matter if AMFA or the Association represents the mechanics as the agreement will still stand.

 
A diatribe full of industrial union logic.
 
Always talking about the "Labor Organization" as "IT"
 
You clearly stated one thing correctly "Nobody really knows the outcome" So why pretend you do?
 
If you are anti-AMFA that's your choice.
 
How about we do this the American way and place all of them IAM, TWU, AMFA, and IBT on the ballot and put this to rest once and for all? Answer to that is simple, industrial unions know they suck and will lose!

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
A diatribe full of industrial union logic.
 
Always talking about the "Labor Organization" as "IT"
 
You clearly stated one thing correctly "Nobody really knows the outcome" So why pretend you do?
 
If you are anti-AMFA that's your choice.
 
How about we do this the American way and place all of them IAM, TWU, AMFA, and IBT on the ballot and put this to rest once and for all? Answer to that is simple, industrial unions know they suck and will lose!

The American way is available, but AMFA can't trigger it since it can't get 50% of the cards. Thus, the onus is upon AMFA.  Being fair to IAM Member Here, he did disclaim that he doen'st know the outcome.

 

[WNMECH]

The American way is available, but AMFA can't trigger it since it can't get 50% of the cards. Thus, the onus is upon AMFA.  Being fair to IAM Member Here, he did disclaim that he doen'st know the outcome.

AMFA doesn't sign cards, mechanics do.
The onus is on them.

When SWA mechanics dumped the IBT, AMFA didn't even know about our card drive until it was already at critical mass. We mechanics made it happen not AMFA.

If you want to control all aspects of your union with complete transparency then sign a card.
Or keep being slaves to unelected union leaders.
It is in the mechanics hands not AMFAs.

 

[Tim Nelson]

AMFA doesn't sign cards, mechanics do.
The onus is on them.

When SWA mechanics dumped the IBT, AMFA didn't even know about our card drive until it was already at critical mass. We mechanics made it happen not AMFA.

If you want to control all aspects of your union with complete transparency then sign a card.
Or keep being slaves to unelected union leaders.
It is in the mechanics hands not AMFAs.

Did the filing by the Association or the IAM include a request for an automatic recognition? Just curious because I thought the IAM/Association said there would be a vote?

 

[WNMECH]

 
But 700 is right about the IAMPF.  If the mechanics vote out the IAM, then  the I'll Ask Management Union may play hard ball and team up with management and refuse to make the IAMPF available. It's the stuff that lawsuits are made of.  So, when AMFA says that mechanics can't possibly lose their future company contributions into the IAMPF, such a statement is incredibly irresponsible.  Yes.  Yes it can happen.  In fact, I think it is probable since the IAM will want to protect itself from other groups doing the same thing. Do I think it would be of ill repute on the IAM's part? Yes.  But the IAM knows any lawsuit would take an extended time and that AMFA would eventually come to an agreement with management, and such agreement will mean that AMFA would have to drop any suits.  Nobody really knows the outcome but it is asinine and irresponsible to tell mechanics, "The IAM can't do that".  It can, and the company would love to stop making contributions.  It may not even be a violation of the agreement if it does, but if it is, then AMFA will have most likely settled a new TA with management anyways.  Whatever happens, expect a mess with that since the IAM US AIRWAYS mechanics chose to have terrible non protective language in their contract regarding that item.  Remember, I think we can all agree that management is more comfortable with the Associaiton but will fight AMFA every step of the way.  Anyone voting for AMFA should expect more than just pension battles.  In the long run, it may be worth the fight since the current unions have done a poor job [to say the least], but it will take years to straighten out the mess.

If AMFA wins, this can be settled in in the regular grievance process, a LOA with the company or in the JCBA. The contributions will not be lost because they are in the contract.
It doesn't have to go straight to lawsuits.

It just sounds like more scare tactics.

 

[chellow]

Don't worry about your IAM pension it's going to disappear, since the IAM will not be representing anyone at AA,  Ref.  ( TWU Local 591- TWU/IAM Association NMB Appeal)   http://www.local591.com/index.cfm?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=444033