AMFA not filing

[OldGuy@AA]

 
 
The 2010 TA had good items in it and instead of taking some of the stuff back we lost in 2003 you gambled on getting it all and then some. In the end we ended up with less. That's the facts.
 
 

The 2010 TA was CRAP.  We were giving away our prefunded medical for a $3000 lump sum payment.  

 

[Overspeed]

Oldguy@AA,
No. You didn't read it. You kept retiree medical, the funding method changed. You didn't read the TA and you got sucked in to the vote no coalition BS. The lump sum was for base only. But you showed the company, you gave up retiree medical, the lump sum, pension, and much higher outsourcing.
 
And if you really are an old guy, you would have stayed status quo and your retiree medical would have stayed as it was prior to BK. You did not vote wisely grasshopper.
 
 
Retiree Medical:

o Current Retirees: No changes to plans for current retirees.
o Current Employees 50 or older (with either 120 months prefunding or who opted into prefunding when first eligible): No changes to current plans.
o Current Employees 49 or Younger

 Pre-65: Employees may fund Pre-65 retiree medical coverage with sick bank hours at a rate of 20 hours per month of coverage for themselves and all eligible
dependents. Employee pre-funding does not apply and the Sick Leave article will be amended to accrue a maximum of 8 days per year and to change the maximum accrual to 250 days. If a retiree’s sick bank is insufficient to provide medical coverage until the retiree turns 65, the retiree will pay monthly premiums at the same rate as other groups that are post-funding for retiree medical coverage at that time (currently 25% of the cost).
 Post-65: Retirees will have access to a guaranteed issue Medicare supplement plan with no company subsidy. 
o Employer prefunding contributions will cease at date of signing.
o The Company and TWU will establish a joint committee as soon as possible to explore rollover options for employee prefunding balances. Absent an option identified, active prefunding balances will be refunded by 12/31/2010.
o Eliminate the provision providing a $25 per-sick-day payout upon retirement.
o Under both options, the plan design will be the same as management, which includes preventive care in-network.
o Increase medical life-time maximum from $300,000 to $500,000
o New Hires

 Pre-65: New hires may fund Pre-65 retiree medical coverage with sick bank hours at a rate of 20 hours per month of coverage for themselves and all eligible dependents. Employee pre-funding does not apply and the Sick Leave article will be amended to accrue a maximum of 8 days per year and to change the maximum accrual to 250 days. If a retiree’s sick bank is insufficient to provide medical coverage until the retiree turns 65, the retiree will pay monthly premiums, actuarially based on family status and age bands at the retiree’s expense.
 Post-65: Retirees will have access to a guaranteed issue Medicare supplement plan with no company subsidy.

 

[767 mechanic]

Owners? If the negotiations team is irrelevant then why show up? And the fact you attempt to blame others the Int'l did not make the videos. You did. So we "gave up" because why? Because you said you were going to push the company harder.
 
The 2010 TA had good items in it and instead of taking some of the stuff back we lost in 2003 you gambled on getting it all and then some. In the end we ended up with less. That's the facts.
 
Not to digress too far but hey, how's those cards coming?

The twu international owns the contract they are the ones responsible. The so called negotiating committee is nothing more than scap goat for the atd. Its amazing how you still come on here and defend the atd even though you got booted to the curb when Lombardo was put in office after little cut the deal with the teamsters. Even though you had the ability to help some of the membership after you were booted to the curb you showed your true colors by not doing the right thing for the sole reason that you were not being paid by the twu. Your no different than little gless or videtich. You are not about being a union member or even a human being you are only about yourself and what you can get financially.

 

[WeAAsles]

Does anyone remember what gravy the company was offering for that extension? Was it only a lump sum payment or were there any structural increases?

I really don't remember the total details?

I do remember the TA we had in Fleet though just before BK and was voting no (much to the chagrin of a few individuals I know) In hindsight for that one it was a good move because we would have lost the immediate value we had with our Cabin Service If we had voted it away prior.

Remembering also that hindsight is 20/20 and none of us were 100% positive that AA would or would have to pull the trigger and go BK.

 

[WeAAsles]

I think that POS Del Valle was trying to scam us and knew they would go BK soon because he threw the contract down on the table and said "Here this is our last offer"

From what I understand our Cabin was worth 20 Mil and we no longer would have had that value to offer in BK and it wouldn't have mattered that we just gave it up because it no longer would have been in our contract to offer?

The Pilots mass exodus caused them to go into court earlier than they planned, and on that I don't need to put a question mark.

 

[scorpion 2]

 
Oldguy@AA,
No. You didn't read it. You kept retiree medical, the funding method changed. You didn't read the TA and you got sucked in to the vote no coalition BS. The lump sum was for base only. But you showed the company, you gave up retiree medical, the lump sum, pension, and much higher outsourcing.
 
And if you really are an old guy, you would have stayed status quo and your retiree medical would have stayed as it was prior to BK. You did not vote wisely grasshopper.
 
 
Retiree Medical:
 Pre-65: Employees may fund Pre-65 retiree medical coverage with sick bank hours at a rate of 20 hours per month of coverage for themselves and all eligible
dependents. Employee pre-funding does not apply and the Sick Leave article will be amended to accrue a maximum of 8 days per year and to change the maximum accrual to 250 days. If a retiree’s sick bank is insufficient to provide medical coverage until the retiree turns 65, the retiree will pay monthly premiums at the same rate as other groups that are post-funding for retiree medical coverage at that time (currently 25% of the cost).
o Current Retirees: No changes to plans for current retirees.
o Current Employees 50 or older (with either 120 months prefunding or who opted into prefunding when first eligible): No changes to current plans.
o Current Employees 49 or Younger
 Post-65: Retirees will have access to a guaranteed issue Medicare supplement plan with no company subsidy. 
o Employer prefunding contributions will cease at date of signing.
o The Company and TWU will establish a joint committee as soon as possible to explore rollover options for employee prefunding balances. Absent an option identified, active prefunding balances will be refunded by 12/31/2010.
o Eliminate the provision providing a $25 per-sick-day payout upon retirement.
o Under both options, the plan design will be the same as management, which includes preventive care in-network.
o Increase medical life-time maximum from $300,000 to $500,000
o New Hires
 

 Pre-65: New hires may fund Pre-65 retiree medical coverage with sick bank hours at a rate of 20 hours per month of coverage for themselves and all eligible dependents. Employee pre-funding does not apply and the Sick Leave article will be amended to accrue a maximum of 8 days per year and to change the maximum accrual to 250 days. If a retiree’s sick bank is insufficient to provide medical coverage until the retiree turns 65, the retiree will pay monthly premiums, actuarially based on family status and age bands at the retiree’s expense.
 Post-65: Retirees will have access to a guaranteed issue Medicare supplement plan with no company subsidy.

Hey numb walnuts, my sick bank is for sick not buying retiree health care! I paid up front for that for over 20 years!  In 2010 the twu wanted to aid and abate the company in ending our sick bank to pay for something we had already paid for.   What would have been next give up our vacation for medical coverage? And yes it would have ended our sick bank because employees of AA that were forced to be members of the twu would have had second thoughts of calling in sick or having necessary surgeries in order to keep max hours in their sick bank.  The 2010 deal was sh!t and the vote no coalition had little to no effect on the Tulsa sheep voting no. Even sheep know when the wolves are getting ready to eat their a$$. 

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Owners? If the negotiations team is irrelevant then why show up? And the fact you attempt to blame others the Int'l did not make the videos. You did. So we "gave up" because why? Because you said you were going to push the company harder.
 
The 2010 TA had good items in it and instead of taking some of the stuff back we lost in 2003 you gambled on getting it all and then some. In the end we ended up with less. That's the facts.
 
Not to digress too far but hey, how's those cards coming?

the negotiating team is meaningless and they are the scapegoats have you not figured that out yet. I can tell you by first hand experience the negotiating committees of 2003 and 2012 were meaningless.  There was no support for what the members wanted only what the company proposed. It was Bob Owens who told us the real deal of negotiations.  Tulsa was ;lied to and led to their own slaughter by union officials telling them to vote yes on a concessionary contract and blaming the "NO" voters.  Why would the TWU scare tulsa into voting yes knowing the contract was less than previous?   that is so anti-union and defeatous for such a large powerful; afl/cio union to act. This was in the membership best interest?  how can you blame the "NO" voters when the TWU pushed for the last vote to pass?  Helping the company pass the last offer was the last thing i would expect a union to do!

 

[CMH_GSE]

CMH_GSE,
How much longer? The point is you had it four years ago. We were advised by the vote no coalition to vote it down remember? Also SK balance increase and elimination of the 50% SK pay was in the 2010 TA. When you vote on your next deal remember what you were advised to vote down based on the advice of many of your current 591 E Board.
 
And before you say they were going to BK anyway, the contract would have been back up for negotiations in 2013 which was right when AMR filed BK.
 

• Sick Leave: Increase the sick leave accrual rate from 5 to 8 days per year and increase the maximum accumulation of sick time from 150 days to 250 days. This was made in conjunction with the Retiree Medical proposal. All SK days will be paid at 100%.

And swamt is pointing out that the deal that was in the TWU 2010 TA was part what AMFA has but still kept the retiree medical intact for the 50 and older crowd which is better than the AMFA deal then and now. Unfortunately enough members believed in the vote no coalition, so much so they voted them to negotiate them in at 591 to negotiate our new JCBA for us. Optimistic about their ability to get us a good deal? Good thing the IAM is in the Association driver seat.

First, I'm still waiting to hear what Weaasles thinks is ample time to pass before we should expect to get our money back, or just admit, that was a stupid statement, and yes, we got rolled by the company on the company match.
Sorry, but that one sticks in my craw because I was told by the TWU the language on the prefunding was iron clad, turns out it really wasn't.

Second, let's not totally revise history.

The 2010 TA.
There were things in it I did not like and there were things missing that I wanted.
At the end of the day, the 2010 TA wasn't voted down by some rogue "vote no" coalition.
It was voted down by over 2/3 of the membership, the vote wasn't even close, because most of the membership felt that it fell far short of what it should have been, given the circumstances at the time.

I guess the majority of the membership that voted down the TA, thought the company needed to step up with a better deal, because the company and the union told us they would when we bailed them out in 2003, should be blamed in the end, because we trusted the company would make good on their word to us.

What I've learned from the 2010 TA , and the ensuing BK and the fallout from that is, you can't really trust anyone. To illustrate, I give you T. Horton & Jim Little as examples...

Our contract language is only good until things get so bad, the company pleads with us to change it so they can all keep their high position jobs and pay.
The contract was changed in a matter of WEEKS back in 2003, weeks, not months.

When the economic climate changes dramatically better than what our language is written for, we can't change it nearly as quickly, in fact , we went 4 YEARS without a raise, 4 years...
Just let that sink in for few minutes.
They took our pay and benefits away in a matter of weeks in 2003.
We then went 3+ years without a raise while we "negotiated"?
We finally got a raise 4 yrs and 4 months after our 40 cents per hour raise.
May 1, 2008 was our 5th year in a row for a 40 cents per hour raise each yr.
Our next raise was 82 cents per hour September 12, 2012.

So when I read Weaasles write: (paraphrasing "don't be in a hurry to get the company match back, because they might roll it into something really cool and liberal") I say, kiss my ass , pay me what you owe me now, I'll decide what to use MY money for, I don't want the union deciding what to use my money for, it's not like they don't have the money.

Fast forward to today, the land of plenty at AA, as in 4 Billion with a "B" in profits.
It would take nothing more than a stroke of the pen by Parker to add to our pay, without any JCBA.
There would be no challenge or objection by either Union to add some pay to our compensation as a showing of good faith.
It didn't take any special conditions to take our pay away, it shouldn't take any special conditions (JCBA) to give some back.

But, the games continue, and it will likely be another year or more before we see any meaningful improvement.

Don't be upset with guys wishing to have better union representation, it's not personal, there are some things the TWU failed at.

It's the right of the membership to demand something better, and that's really what this is all about.

Its the right of the membership to hold their representatives responsible for their standing in the industry.

 

[WeAAsles]

First, I'm still waiting to hear what Weaasles thinks is ample time to pass before we should expect to get our money back, or just admit, that was a stupid statement, and yes, we got rolled by the company on the company match.
Sorry, but that one sticks in my craw because I was told by the TWU the language on the prefunding was iron clad, turns out it really wasn't.

How do you know that the language that originally was written isn't iron clad yet if the Union hasn't taken it to Arbitration or even court if need be to settle that possible argument? Currently in regards to the BK language of "Upon successful completion of the 1114" the APFA is in the middle of their own Arbitration and is arguing that by the company not utilizing that feature of the court they are in violation of the intent of their language. Essentially arguing that the company was obliged to go forward with that process.

And yes you can say we ALL got rolled when it came to that language which was forced on us at the hands of a BK gun. (I know you guys would have preferred they shoot you instead and just take your wallet from your cold dead corpse)
 

So when I read Weaasles write: (paraphrasing "don't be in a hurry to get the company match back, because they might roll it into something really cool and liberal") I say, kiss my ass , pay me what you owe me now, I'll decide what to use MY money for, I don't want the union deciding what to use my money for, it's not like they don't have the money.

 

And if that money is returned then even the consideration of it maybe being used for what it was originally intended to be used for evaporates like a fart in the wind. It could easily be negotiated that a "choice" is optional. It can be rolled over into your sick bank (If you'd like) or it can be returned to you. Again the thing I continue to advocate for is choice.

Besides the company still has not initiated the Adversarial proceeding against the retirees to do away with or modify their medical and there are still lingering issues that are being argued before Judge Lane. The book of the AA BK has not been closed yet.
 
Scheduled Court Hearings
 
(Jointly Administered)
All hearings will be before the Hon. Sean H. Lane and are located
at the below address unless otherwise noted:

United States Bankruptcy Court
Southern District of New York
Alexander Hamilton Custom House
Courtroom 701
One Bowling Green
New York, NY 10004-1408

November 19, 2015 at 11:00 a.m. (EST) Fifty-Ninth Omnibus Hearing

http://www.amrcaseinfo.com/hearings.php
 

Fast forward to today, the land of plenty at AA, as in 4 Billion with a "B" in profits.
It would take nothing more than a stroke of the pen by Parker to add to our pay, without any JCBA.
There would be no challenge or objection by either Union to add some pay to our compensation as a showing of good faith.
It didn't take any special conditions to take our pay away, it shouldn't take any special conditions (JCBA) to give some back.

 

I agree very much with this statement and it would have went a long way towards the New AA proving that things were going to truly be different. All they did by withholding that money was prove that the only thing they consider us is Donkey's who they hope will continue to sow the fields while trying to get at that carrot on a stick.

Nice to read someone blame the Company on this Forums board for a change.  

 

[WeAAsles]

You know in a parallel Universe somewhere out there the AMFA would have been the Maintenance bargaining representative at AA when the company filed BK. I would have loved to have witnessed how much better a job that group would have done against all of those very high priced Lawyers that the company had on their behalf to argue their case?

Even better still if they would have been in charge when the company came around in 03?

I really wish I could be able to tell that story.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

There are too many libtards in tulsa. (That was for le lo li )

I don't know why that would be for me. I am from Tulsa but I do not support the association. Personally I think the "association" is nothing but a tool for American Airlines (with the cooperation of the TWU) to offload pension liabilities and IAM to keep their ponzi scheme going. The only real losers will be the dues payers. 
 

There is far to much fear and apathy within our group.

That is what really defeated the AMFA attempt, not the liberals.
 

It doesn't help with the misinformation about amfa being spread in Tulsa

Did you think the company was going to cooperate with losing the TWU. 
 
Did you think the TWU was going to cooperate with their own demise?
 
It was a given that the AA/TWU propaganda machine would be in full swing.
 

I've worked in non Union places before. You just need to do your job competently and not be a jerk, and you will be fine.

I agree.
 
It is unfortunate that the membership is the victim of a constant fear and propaganda machine.
 
Then you have the employees with absolutely no work ethic that have been nothing but DEAD WEIGHT for years that will keep the UNION at any cost so they can continue to be a parasite on their coworkers.

 

[700UW]

It doesnt matter if you support it or not, you are not an AA employee nor will you have a vote.

 

[MetalMover]

the negotiating team is meaningless and they are the scapegoats have you not figured that out yet. I can tell you by first hand experience the negotiating committees of 2003 and 2012 were meaningless.  There was no support for what the members wanted only what the company proposed. It was Bob Owens who told us the real deal of negotiations.  Tulsa was ;lied to and led to their own slaughter by union officials telling them to vote yes on a concessionary contract and blaming the "NO" voters.  Why would the TWU scare tulsa into voting yes knowing the contract was less than previous?   that is so anti-union and defeatous for such a large powerful; afl/cio union to act. This was in the membership best interest?  how can you blame the "NO" voters when the TWU pushed for the last vote to pass?  Helping the company pass the last offer was the last thing i would expect a union to do!

What intrigues me is why anyone in OH would believe what Owens and yourself were advising. They have danced to their own beat for decades. 
I, for one, make my own decisions based on the facts I see. I take all info and vote based on what I believe is best for us. 

 

[700UW]

I call BS on a 1,000 cards short.
 
There are around 1,000 Utility at US on layoff who have lifetime recall rights alone, there is no way in a months time they were able to contact them and get any Utility to sign cards.
 

 

[FWAAA]

Nice to read someone blame the Company on this Forums board for a change.

TWU/IAM cheerleader tired of hearing people blame their worthless impotent shitty unions? No surprise there.