American will start Haneda

[diamondcutter]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-launch-between-los-140000799.html?soc_src=mediacontentsharebuttons

 

[jimntx]

But, but Delta has already instructed the DOT to rescind our route award and give it back to Delta.  What is the DOT thinking?  They are ignoring clear cut instructions from Delta.  There will be a lawsuit no doubt.

 

[eolesen]

It's a 787, and clearly, someone in route planning has a sense of humor with the flight numbers.... those used to belong to SEA-NRT.

 

[MAH4546]

But, but Delta has already instructed the DOT to rescind our route award and give it back to Delta.  What is the DOT thinking?  They are ignoring clear cut instructions from Delta.  There will be a lawsuit no doubt.

They are also ignoring WT's instructions that the flight replace LAXNRT, when it will in fact compliment it.

 

[jcw]

The flight numbers are hilarious - it's great to see how an airline works with others and gets a great outcome

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

It's a 787, and clearly, someone in route planning has a sense of humor with the flight numbers.... those used to belong to SEA-NRT.

 
I'm sure somebody at DL is typing a memo to the DOT entitled ".... pssst:  it's a 787 as opposed to the promised 777" 
Perhaps a spectator reading these forums will chime in to tell everyone why this route will fail regardless ... ... ...
 

 
I also noticed the "daily, year round, non-stop service" mentioned right in the first sentence.

 

[eolesen]

At this point, I could care less what DL does about it.

I think everyone knows that the 787 is the right density for that market, especially given the timings.

 

[jcw]

Your right and airlines change gauge all the time - if one airline goes from a747 to a 767 do they refile?

 

[USFlyer]

Is it me or are those times not exactly ideal?

 

[FWAAA]

Is it me or are those times not exactly ideal?

While they might not be ideal, they're substantially what AA proposed when they filed to take the SEA-HND authority away from Delta. IIRC, AA proposed arriving at HND as early as permitted, around 10:00pm local time, and proposed to depart HND as early as permitted, around midnight.

These slots have AA arriving and departing HND about an hour later than AA proposed, but they're workable, since the flight times at LAX allow numerous connections at LAX, both departing and arriving.

If HND were open to US carriers during normal business daylight hours, then AA would probably arrive HND around 4:00pm (just like it does to NRT) and then would depart HND around 6:00pm (just like it does with NRT-LAX).

Delta is to blame for the absence of any movement on the new daytime HND slots to US carriers, as it is stubbornly demanding that it be given enough HND daytime slots so that it can move its entire NRT hub back to HND, and according to AA's filings with DOT, that's what's holding up the negotiations for the additional daytime slots.

 

[eolesen]

Is it me or are those times not exactly ideal?

That's been a point of contention all along. There are no daytime arrival or departure slots allowed for long-haul international flying from the US.

Maybe now A4A will be able to lobby on behalf of its members for daytime slots.

 

[strangiatotheme]

That's been a point of contention all along. HND only goes INTL after 2300 or so. There are no daytime arrival or departure slots allowed for long-haul international flying.

 
They have daytime International flights now - I believe several European carriers and Air Canada are using daytime HND slots - but none are available for U.S. service.  Those can only op between 2200-0700, and I believe there's an extra stipulation that U.S. Mainland departures can only occur after midnight.

 

[Overspeed]

Agree. 0130 departure seems odd but I did not know that Int'l was only permitted after 2300. Is that because HND was restricted when NRT was built? Kind of like a Wright Amendment?

 

[FWAAA]

When HND was reopened to limited long-haul international traffic in 2010, operations to/from North America were permitted only between 2200 and 0700. More specifically, those flights may arrive HND between 2200 and 0700 but may depart HND only between 0000 (2400) and 0700. On top of that, it's important that the flight depart and arrive the US gateway when connections to/from that gateway are viable, further limiting the times that the flight may arrive/depart HND.

When NRT finally opened, all long-haul international traffic was forced to NRT, forcing NW to move its hub to NRT. Anderson wants to move it back to HND but there aren't enough daytime slots proposed for North America, let alone for Delta.

 

[eolesen]

Here's the pattern of arrivals/departures for everyone except JL/NH, and flights > 3500 miles (which rules out most intra-APAC flying):
 

Cxr	Flt	From	To	Miles	Eqpt	Upline	HND	Downline
DL	636	HND	LAX	5478	76W	-----	00:10	18:00
QR	813	HND	DOH	5127	788	-----	00:15	06:30
UA	876	HND	SFO	5150	777	-----	00:20	16:35
AF	293	HND	CDG	6031	772	-----	00:30	05:30
EK	313	HND	DXB	4929	77L	-----	00:30	07:20
QF	25	SYD	HND	4855	744	21:30	05:30	-----
BA	7	LHR	HND	5958	777	10:45	07:30	-----
GA	874	CGK	HND	3591	333	23:25	08:50	-----
BA	8	HND	LHR	5958	777	-----	09:45	13:35
LH	714	MUC	HND	5814	346	15:25	11:00	-----
GA	875	HND	CGK	3591	333	-----	11:45	17:10
LH	715	HND	MUC	5814	346	-----	12:50	17:00
LH	716	FRA	HND	5816	74H	17:55	13:05	-----
LH	717	HND	FRA	5816	74H	-----	15:20	19:15
AC	5	YYZ	HND	6430	77L	13:45	17:05	-----
AC	6	HND	YYZ	6430	77L	-----	18:50	16:45
AF	274	CDG	HND	6031	77W	23:25	19:25	-----
QF	26	HND	SYD	4855	744	-----	22:00	09:35
HA	457	HNL	HND	3851	332	17:45	22:05	-----
DL	637	LAX	HND	5478	76W	16:50	22:20	-----
UA	875	SFO	HND	5150	777	18:10	22:35	-----
QR	812	DOH	HND	5127	788	07:25	22:45	-----
EK	312	DXB	HND	4929	77L	08:25	22:45	-----
HA	458	HND	HNL	3851	332	-----	23:55	12:00

Clearly, the EU and Canada negotiated something, but the US has been stymied.

I'm guessing the Japanese wouldn't object to daytime flights at HND if it weren't for DL wanting to use their fifth freedom rights there instead of NRT. DL seems to like split operations everywhere else, though.