American Airlines’ parent company reports earnings of $292 million — and that’s just in July

[700UW]

A 401k uses the employees own money out of their paycheck, so it reduces their take home pay.

The pilots and FAs have a 401k match, as does the agents, but they have a dcp.

A 401k is a retirement savings account, not a pension.

Quote the whole post.

 

[Jacobin777]

Jacob,
Thanks for your post because it is apparent that the primary motivation with your desire to call out the loss at Trainer is because I have done the same thing about other AA operations. You seem to feel like because I have rained on your AA parade, you should be able to do the same thing.
Problem for you is trying to use that kind of logic to justify your actions makes it very likely you will just be shown wrong. Revenge never achieves the effect you think it will without creating harm to yourself first.

Er, actually not. This is an AA forum, not a DL forum. You don't see me coming over to the DL forum and "piss on anyone's parade".

It would help if you got your context straightened out. 🙂

The simple fact is that DL cannot and never will be able to quantify the effects of the refinery operations and its increased levels of jet fuel production on the price of a commodity. No airline would ever say that “we reduced the price of air transportation for consumers by X percent by putting Y amount of additional capacity into the marketplace.” Likewise, no oil refiner will say that “we can claim credit for reducing the price of gasoline because we increased capacity at our ABC refinery.” You can’t legally prove it and you can’t legally say it.

Its about profit margins and ROI. There is a reason why DL gives its losses, no reason why it can't give its profits/ROI. If I invested in DL stock or if I was a DL bondholder, I would certainly like to know what the blood 'ell is happening with the facility.

Nice spin, but it's not going to work with me.

However, DL execs have said that they believe the refinery has helped contribute to the price of jet fuel and they put it in their 10Q which they filed with the SEC on Aug 1.

This is the statement that DL made in its SEC filing:
The refinery recorded a loss of $51 million in the June 2013 quarter, or five cents per gallon. The loss is primarily attributable to higher RINs expense as mentioned above. However, we believe the increase of jet fuel in the marketplace from our refinery's production has contributed to the reduction of overall jet fuel prices, and lowered our cost of jet fuel.

DL also noted, as has every other airline, that jet fuel prices were lower in the most recent quarter than they were a year ago.

Once again, vague comments. Just how much did the Trainer facility reduce prices? For who? Its not as if the Trainer facility can process/refine hundreds of thousands of gallons oil/daily.

Jet prices have gone down everywhere actually (source:IATA data). Had the price of Jet-A gone down specifically in the northeast, once can possibly conclude the Trainer facility was responsible for it.

The US D o Energy tracks the prices of a number of petroleum prices and has them BY DAY for a number of years. You can verify the changes in jet fuel prices against the price for other products and see that jet fuel prices are better off this year than they were a year ago compared to other refined products in the US. The DOE also has stories on its website regarding the Trainer refinery and the expectation that it will increase the amount of jet fuel in the market.

The crack spread is a calculated measurement and isn’t even a single number. You are not going to find a single chart or article saying that the crack spread has been reduced by X amount because of DL’s refinery.
There is clear evidence that jet fuel prices are lower than they would have been without Trainer.
Here is one tidbit, however, that the growth of supplies has helped push down prices.
http://www.bloomberg...ries-build.html
DL execs and its SEC filings have said as much as they legally can say; the data is there if you want to believe it.

Er, thanks for the info but I invest in commodities for my clients-in other words, I know a thing or two about crack spreads, oil prices, etc. Again, regarding the Trainer facility, see my comment above.

It doesn’t change that the data is there to show what is happening, just as it is about AA’s performance in specific markets. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t make it any less valid.

I agree, but as I have previously mentioned, DL's comments are vague. The losses aren't.

It also doesn't change that you are not much different than a whole lot of other people on here who turn to personal attacks when someone makes a point that you don't like, even if you can't really prove them to be wrong.

Yet another tu quoque comment by you.

I also made it very clear that I am happy for what AA has accomplished. But you also seem to want to skim past the fact that AA made money in the same month last year only to report losses months later and AA lost money not that many months ago. It is fully expected that airlines should make money in the summer.

I've never "skimmed" on anything. All I've stated is that AA has improved its finances the past 10-14 months and hopefully it should continue that in the future. I've also said ostensibly its looking as if AA will once again become a formidable carrier thanks to the work of AA management and its employees.

I'm also on record stating I prefer AA as a stand-alone carrier with Horton & Co. running the show and certainly not with Parker & Co. running the show.

I don't know how much more simple I can be.

You also love to tout the fact that AA's labor unions have locked themselves (or they got locked into via the BK process) low multi-year labor rates that will allow AA to continue to accrue profits and labor won't have an opportunity to recoup those losses for years. AA also cut a higher percentage of its costs from labor than other airlines and its revenue production is at best industry average.

I'm sorry if you have to hear those realities but that is life the way a whole lot of people see it including tens of thousands of AA employees.

A contract is a contract. What don't you understand?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Josh,
Again, you make abundantly clear that your real motivation is that you think that you should be free to post whatever you want, free from the input of anyone else. Life doesn’t work that way and neither does this board. If AA’s results and your points are as sound as you think they are, then you should have no problem prevailing even despite the unsolicited comments. The fact that professional and industry-respected analysts have highlighted the same problems I have highlighted about AA’s financial results show that I am not the only one who sees them.

Quite in contrast, there are no analysts or investors who are hung up on the refinery’s relatively small operational losses on the refinery like you are and can understand the role the refinery offers in DL's overall financial results. The reason for your focus on the refinery is quite simply because you can’t stand having anyone speak negatively about AA. If it was a real problem, analysts and investors would care - but they don't.

If you are as interested in keeping DL issues off the AA forum, then why do you continue to beat this horse? You brought it up.

Either you suffer from OCD or you have exhausted the limits of your Latin. Or perhaps you continue to look for sympathies from others who have also expressed the same desire to have their own private platform, free from any contrarian comments.

Go ahead and keep reminding AA labor of the contract that they are working under &ndash even though they were forced not once, but twice, over the past 10 years to essentially accept the terms the company offered or have them imposed by a BK court. No one would realistically call that “mutual consent” which is the basis of legitimate contracts. Add in that the RLA and BK laws combined have created a significant imbalance in the ability of labor to have a voice and it isn’t hard to see why airline labor relations are so bad. Given that AA has taken advantage of those imbalances not once but twice, the notion that AA will succeed long-term while their employees’ fate moves further and further from average with their peers is all the more fanciful.

History – including the annals of AA – are replete with examples of companies that gained short term benefits only to see them vanish when labor got tired of watching their peers succeed while they languished even though everyone else that benefits from their efforts makes out like kings and queens.

If AA's financial results are as strong as you want to make them out to be, they will withstand the critical comments from me and the disdain of labor.

 

[Jacobin777]

Josh,
Again, you make abundantly clear that your real motivation is that you think that you should be free to post whatever you want, free from the input of anyone else. Life doesn’t work that way and neither does this board. If AA’s results and your points are as sound as you think they are, then you should have no problem prevailing even despite the unsolicited comments. The fact that professional and industry-respected analysts have highlighted the same problems I have highlighted about AA’s financial results show that I am not the only one who sees them.

Quite in contrast, there are no analysts or investors who are hung up on the refinery’s relatively small operational losses on the refinery like you are and can understand the role the refinery offers in DL's overall financial results. The reason for your focus on the refinery is quite simply because you can’t stand having anyone speak negatively about AA. If it was a real problem, analysts and investors would care - but they don't.

If you are as interested in keeping DL issues off the AA forum, then why do you continue to beat this horse? You brought it up.

Either you suffer from OCD or you have exhausted the limits of your Latin. Or perhaps you continue to look for sympathies from others who have also expressed the same desire to have their own private platform, free from any contrarian comments.

Go ahead and keep reminding AA labor of the contract that they are working under &ndash even though they were forced not once, but twice, over the past 10 years to essentially accept the terms the company offered or have them imposed by a BK court. No one would realistically call that “mutual consent” which is the basis of legitimate contracts. Add in that the RLA and BK laws combined have created a significant imbalance in the ability of labor to have a voice and it isn’t hard to see why airline labor relations are so bad. Given that AA has taken advantage of those imbalances not once but twice, the notion that AA will succeed long-term while their employees’ fate moves further and further from average with their peers is all the more fanciful.

History – including the annals of AA – are replete with examples of companies that gained short term benefits only to see them vanish when labor got tired of watching their peers succeed while they languished even though everyone else that benefits from their efforts makes out like kings and queens.

If AA's financial results are as strong as you want to make them out to be, they will withstand the critical comments from me and the disdain of labor.

No judge is going to throw out the labor agreements signed-no matter how much you believe so.

 

[700UW]

You are wrong, at US Judge Mitchell abrogated the M&R cba at US.

 

[Jacobin777]

You are wrong, at US Judge Mitchell abrogated the M&R cba at US.

1)We are talking about AA not US.
2)Just because it happened at US doesn't mean its going to happen here.
3)There is no proof or any reason to believe the contracts will be thrown out, changed, etc. anytime soon, if at all.
4)If they are thrown out, and completely IMHO, it wouldn't be in favor of the unions-again, pure speculation and IMHO.

 

[WorldTraveler]

.... because AA is speciAAl and they are exempt from the rules of the rest of the industry?

Not a chance.

AA could just as easily have abrogated contracts as was done to other airlines... they just used the threat of BK to get what they wanted without asking the BK court to throw out their contracts.

Yes, it is doubtful the contracts will be thrown out and I never said that was likely to happen but that doesn't mean that the AA workers are any happier about the process.

 

[Jacobin777]

.... because AA is speciAAl and they are exempt from the rules of the rest of the industry?

I never stated as such.

Yes, it is doubtful the contracts will be thrown out and I never said that was likely to happen but that doesn't mean that the AA workers are any happier about the process.

Good, then we are in agreement. 🙂

 

[dfw gen]

am i the only one that thinks world traveler is a d*ck? probably some dweeb that's sits behind a computer and cant afford to fly if he wanted too. kind of like an arm chair quaterback that wishes someone would let him play fantasy football?

 

[WorldTraveler]

you would be wrong. Year to date I have 80,000 miles, including 11 transoceanic segments, about 25% of all segments in the premium cabin.

 

[Kev3188]

am i the only one that thinks world traveler is a d*ck? probably some dweeb that's sits behind a computer and cant afford to fly if he wanted too. kind of like an arm chair quaterback that wishes someone would let him play fantasy football?

$$$ isn't an issue when you can use pass travel...

 

[WorldTraveler]

I can provide receipts....

but once again we have a handful of people who want to turn the discussion into a personal assault about another user and try to marginalize him because they don't like what he has to say and more importantly can't counter them so the next best option is to try to pretend he doesn't have any basis for what he says.

If it's not truth, it shouldn't be hard to counter.

If it is, then learn to accept, live with, and learn from it.

 

[johnny kat]

Please don't hate on me, but, WT for all of his warts does make very valid and factual arguments, always in favor of DELTA...of course.

Both AA and US should be so lucky to have such a fierce advocate... There, I've said it, now I have to go throw up 🙂