American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[TWU informer]

A Presidential Emergency Board? Aside from a contempt order, that would probably be the worst case scenario.

I am not sure, nor do I really care where you get that opinion.
My opinion is based on the fact that I testified at and witnessed the NWA vs AMFA PEB in Philadelphia
After watching AMFA present their case and hammering NWA management the result was a industry leading agreement prior to the PEB Panel giving their recommendation. If the Union cannot present and win their demands in front a 3 panel neutral then maybe the demand is unreasonable and needs to be modified.

Again, my opinion that a PEB is the best way to resolution is based on first hand witness experience.
We could always go another 5 years and lose another $200K in monetary gains, and then settle for a $50K signing bonus. My calculator indicates that's a losing path.

I am embarrassed that the screaming rhetorical bus driver is my leader

 

[NYer]

I am not sure, nor do I really care where you get that opinion.
My opinion is based on the fact that I testified at and witnessed the NWA vs AMFA PEB in Philadelphia
After watching AMFA present their case and hammering NWA management the result was a industry leading agreement prior to the PEB Panel giving their recommendation. If the Union cannot present and win their demands in front a 3 panel neutral then maybe the demand is unreasonable and needs to be modified.

Again, my opinion that a PEB is the best way to resolution is based on first hand witness experience.
We could always go another 5 years and lose another $200K in monetary gains, and then settle for a $50K signing bonus. My calculator indicates that's a losing path.

I am embarrassed that the screaming rhetorical bus driver is my leader

.
That would surely be the outcome considering the hot ticket items like the scope & medical proposals are still better than most others in the industry.

With the consolidation in the industry, even from the NWA days, there are less comparators and we happen to be on top in many areas. We can go down and still be equal to our ahead of others.

 

[Buck]

Good grief. That should be revisited.

You are correct there is a lot of spelling and grammar errors. I use software to help me.
The basic software costed me nothing.

 

[TWU informer]

.
That would surely be the outcome considering the hot ticket items like the scope & medical proposals are still better than most others in the industry.

With the consolidation in the industry, even from the NWA days, there are less comparators and we happen to be on top in many areas. We can go down and still be equal to our ahead of others.

I agree with that statement
And therefore the argument before the 3 member PEB Panel should include the industries current economic status.
After years of deregulation, many different carriers, and cut throat competition, the labor force at the Airlines were in a race to the bottom.
By that I mean each negotiations, there were concessions reducing cost structure to put pressure on the competition. And then the next group to negotiate had to match the concessions.

Well deregulation has run its course so to speak
Bankruptcies, Mergers, and Consolidation is complete.
WE should be able to argue that we can now return the days of improving the livelihood of the airline worker and leap frog in a positive direction in each negotiations, within reasonable increases.

When Parker stated "We will never lose money again" he did not mean he want to continue the assault on Airline Workers
What he meant was the Industry is still going to cycle as before, but instead of the profit/loss margin splitting the middle of the peaks and valleys, the profit loss line is now below the valleys or weakest part of the cycle. In other words, in the valleys the profits will be much lower but still above the red, and the peaks will be extremely profitable. If the Union cannot get an economist to explain this to the panel because they appoint all representation from the floor, then yes a PEB will be disaster.

But I witnessed with own ears and eyes, and professional organization, with HIRED not appointed Lawyers and Economist slam NWA Management, even before Consolidation of the Industry had completed.

Instead of a $290,000 K bus driver, we should hire a $290,000 K economist and lawyer and welcome the PEB Panel

The biggest problem we have is not being a Mechanic and Related Craft Union like AMFA
And the only issue before the PEB would be comparing the Mechanic and Related at other Carriers

No we belong to this catch all Union that wants to use our skill and safety standards to funnel money and benefits to the unskilled via socialistic philosophies. The wild card being AMFA only had to present the Mechanic and Related Case, while this Piece of **** Association has to present a case for over paying unskilled worker classifications because the philosophy is the "loaf of bread cost the same for everybody BROTHER"

Fix that problem, and the Mechanics will see better results

 

[Tim Nelson]

I agree with that statement
And therefore the argument before the 3 member PEB Panel should include the industries current economic status.
After years of deregulation, many different carriers, and cut throat competition, the labor force at the Airlines were in a race to the bottom.
By that I mean each negotiations, there were concessions reducing cost structure to put pressure on the competition. And then the next group to negotiate had to match the concessions.

Well deregulation has run its course so to speak
Bankruptcies, Mergers, and Consolidation is complete.
WE should be able to argue that we can now return the days of improving the livelihood of the airline worker and leap frog in a positive direction in each negotiations, within reasonable increases.

When Parker stated "We will never lose money again" he did not mean he want to continue the assault on Airline Workers
What he meant was the Industry is still going to cycle as before, but instead of the profit/loss margin splitting the middle of the peaks and valleys, the profit loss line is now below the valleys or weakest part of the cycle. In other words, in the valleys the profits will be much lower but still above the red, and the peaks will be extremely profitable. If the Union cannot get an economist to explain this to the panel because they appoint all representation from the floor, then yes a PEB will be disaster.

But I witnessed with own ears and eyes, and professional organization, with HIRED not appointed Lawyers and Economist slam NWA Management, even before Consolidation of the Industry had completed.

Instead of a $290,000 K bus driver, we should hire a $290,000 K economist and lawyer and welcome the PEB Panel

The biggest problem we have is not being a Mechanic and Related Craft Union like AMFA
And the only issue before the PEB would be comparing the Mechanic and Related at other Carriers

No we belong to this catch all Union that wants to use our skill and safety standards to funnel money and benefits to the unskilled via socialistic philosophies. The wild card being AMFA only had to present the Mechanic and Related Case, while this Piece of **** Association has to present a case for over paying unskilled worker classifications because the philosophy is the "loaf of bread cost the same for everybody BROTHER"

Fix that problem, and the Mechanics will see better results

i doubt there is ever a peb committee.
We are on ice. Nmb has given every indication that there wont be an impasse. The next negotiations will happen when the association picks up the phone and calls the nmb to submit.
We arent going to get any more of a deal. The last proposal is the most we will EVER get now.

 

[NYer]

I agree with that statement
And therefore the argument before the 3 member PEB Panel should include the industries current economic status.
After years of deregulation, many different carriers, and cut throat competition, the labor force at the Airlines were in a race to the bottom.
By that I mean each negotiations, there were concessions reducing cost structure to put pressure on the competition. And then the next group to negotiate had to match the concessions.

Well deregulation has run its course so to speak
Bankruptcies, Mergers, and Consolidation is complete.
WE should be able to argue that we can now return the days of improving the livelihood of the airline worker and leap frog in a positive direction in each negotiations, within reasonable increases.

When Parker stated "We will never lose money again" he did not mean he want to continue the assault on Airline Workers
What he meant was the Industry is still going to cycle as before, but instead of the profit/loss margin splitting the middle of the peaks and valleys, the profit loss line is now below the valleys or weakest part of the cycle. In other words, in the valleys the profits will be much lower but still above the red, and the peaks will be extremely profitable. If the Union cannot get an economist to explain this to the panel because they appoint all representation from the floor, then yes a PEB will be disaster.

But I witnessed with own ears and eyes, and professional organization, with HIRED not appointed Lawyers and Economist slam NWA Management, even before Consolidation of the Industry had completed.

Instead of a $290,000 K bus driver, we should hire a $290,000 K economist and lawyer and welcome the PEB Panel

The biggest problem we have is not being a Mechanic and Related Craft Union like AMFA
And the only issue before the PEB would be comparing the Mechanic and Related at other Carriers

No we belong to this catch all Union that wants to use our skill and safety standards to funnel money and benefits to the unskilled via socialistic philosophies. The wild card being AMFA only had to present the Mechanic and Related Case, while this Piece of **** Association has to present a case for over paying unskilled worker classifications because the philosophy is the "loaf of bread cost the same for everybody BROTHER"

Fix that problem, and the Mechanics will see better results

That's all fine, but the question isn't going to be about stemming the cuts but to reach an agreement. To get what the Maintenance group wants means the airline gets little of what they want. On the other hand, even with some of the things the airline wants, and this process is skewed towards business, they will argue that the we would still be better off than other employee groups at other airlines.

They would say their overall outlay would bring their expenses higher than others and the reason they can and have been profitable is by controlling expenses and they can't return to that uncertainty. Even with all their items on the checklist, they'll argue, will still have more employees than any other airline.

Those arguments don't even get into the probable anti-union atmosphere within a PEB.

We'd be better off turning off the megaphone and trying to get the best language we can before we lose the ability to have a say at our destiny.

 

[TWU informer]

That's all fine, but the question isn't going to be about stemming the cuts but to reach an agreement. To get what the Maintenance group wants means the airline gets little of what they want. On the other hand, even with some of the things the airline wants, and this process is skewed towards business, they will argue that the we would still be better off than other employee groups at other airlines.

They would say their overall outlay would bring their expenses higher than others and the reason they can and have been profitable is by controlling expenses and they can't return to that uncertainty. Even with all their items on the checklist, they'll argue, will still have more employees than any other airline.

Those arguments don't even get into the probable anti-union atmosphere within a PEB.

We'd be better off turning off the megaphone and trying to get the best language we can before we lose the ability to have a say at our destiny.

I think we lost that say in our destiny the day the Association was certified without a vote of the membership
But I do understand your point

 

[AOAMT86]

Does it not come down to what AA pays for maintenance per available seat miles in comparison to other carriers. Why would the board of directors agree to pay for a industry leading contract ( cost wise per employee) that employees a larger head count per aircraft than its competitors ?

 

[NYer]

Does it not come down to what AA pays for maintenance per available seat miles in comparison to other carriers. Why would the board of directors agree to pay for a industry leading contract ( cost wise per employee) that employees a larger head count per aircraft than its competitors ?

For most workers, they don't care about that. They see the big profit number and figure there's enough to get what they want.

The challenge, however, is to overcome that issue with those that do care about expenses relative to other airlines.

Not understanding or even acknowledging that fact is the reason our disappointment usually turns to pointing fingers to explain not attaining unrealistic expectations.

 

[V.O. Reason]

i doubt there is ever a peb committee.
We are on ice. Nmb has given every indication that there wont be an impasse. The next negotiations will happen when the association picks up the phone and calls the nmb to submit.
We arent going to get any more of a deal. The last proposal is the most we will EVER get now.

So Tim are you saying we can expect nothing to happen this year?
I thought the NMB was going to set dates for more talks.
Is the Ass stalling on that and not wanting that or what?
Somebody has to know the real scoop here because the damn Ass sure aren’t saying anything since those separate meetings

 

[TWU informer]

For most workers, they don't care about that. They see the big profit number and figure there's enough to get what they want.

The challenge, however, is to overcome that issue with those that do care about expenses relative to other airlines.

Not understanding or even acknowledging that fact is the reason our disappointment usually turns to pointing fingers to explain not attaining unrealistic expectations.

Exactly
However, relative to the UAL M&R Contract, the AA M&R proposal is short:
1 Week Vacation
Skill Premium pay for unlicensed skilled positions UAL = $5.25 AA Proposal = $3.45
2 Sick Days per year
Retirement Medical Bridge paid for from Sick Bank
Ability to go to retain seniority and go into management with a one time return non management position (This would improve our management leadership)

And Both UAL and Delta profit sharing is way more than AA plan

The issue appears to be that M&R is getting shorted to fund Fleet Service Excessive Full Time jobs compared to UAL

Again, although the AA "Ground Worker" cost pie proposal is more expensive than UAL or Delta according to Management,
It is clear that if the M&R group were separate from Fleet Service, the company table offer would have to improve on day one for M&R to get Industry Leading.

 

[iluvaa]

Exactly
However, relative to the UAL M&R Contract, the AA M&R proposal is short:
1 Week Vacation
Skill Premium pay for unlicensed skilled positions UAL = $5.25 AA Proposal = $3.45
2 Sick Days per year
Retirement Medical Bridge paid for from Sick Bank
Ability to go to retain seniority and go into management with a one time return non management position (This would improve our management leadership)

And Both UAL and Delta profit sharing is way more than AA plan

The issue appears to be that M&R is getting shorted to fund Fleet Service Excessive Full Time jobs compared to UAL

Again, although the AA "Ground Worker" cost pie proposal is more expensive than UAL or Delta according to Management,
It is clear that if the M&R group were separate from Fleet Service, the company table offer would have to improve on day one for M&R to get Industry Leading.

But what is United’s mechanic to plane ratio.

 

[NYer]

Exactly
However, relative to the UAL M&R Contract, the AA M&R proposal is short:
1 Week Vacation
Skill Premium pay for unlicensed skilled positions UAL = $5.25 AA Proposal = $3.45
2 Sick Days per year
Retirement Medical Bridge paid for from Sick Bank
Ability to go to retain seniority and go into management with a one time return non management position (This would improve our management leadership)

And Both UAL and Delta profit sharing is way more than AA plan

The issue appears to be that M&R is getting shorted to fund Fleet Service Excessive Full Time jobs compared to UAL

Again, although the AA "Ground Worker" cost pie proposal is more expensive than UAL or Delta according to Management,
It is clear that if the M&R group were separate from Fleet Service, the company table offer would have to improve on day one for M&R to get Industry Leading.

It's Fleets fault?

C'mon now.

There are many thousands more mechanics at LAA than any other airline, including UAL.

Matter of fact, there are almost as many mechanics and related as there are FSC.

 

[cltrat]

So Tim are you saying we can expect nothing to happen this year?
I thought the NMB was going to set dates for more talks.
Is the Ass stalling on that and not wanting that or what?
Somebody has to know the real scoop here because the damn Ass sure aren’t saying anything since those separate meetings

One thing for sure is no one here knows the “scoop “
Hell Im not sure anyone knows the scoop at this point

 

[bigjets]

We're also the only group that got an abomination known as the ASS shoved down our throats so whats your point? No LAA guy in their right mind, except you and weasel, would've voted for these ASS idiots. BTW, how much did your boy Little get paid, I'm sure you know? Just curious how much this hot mess actually costed, thx

Just a side note.....in 2001 when we got that great contract, Little got a pay raise he said “You guys get a raise, I get a raise” seems fair.

In 2003 when we took the pay cuts Little kept his pay raise, but now his compensation was “Well I control 250k members and my compensation is equivalent to the pay of a CEO of equivalent size company” that’s the way I remember it.