ALPA/USAPA Topic for week of 1/24 to 1/31

[luvn737s]

So when a prospective member asks:
1. Are you solvent?
2. Do you have a credible verifiable track record of leadership?
3. How will you provide substantive gains for all pilots within the contraints of Nicolau?
4. Will you support joint negotiations if USAPA fails?
5. How do you protect junior pilots from furlough under separate operations

USAPA SAYS POUND SAND

 

[Phoenix]

So when a prospective member asks:
1. Are you solvent?
2. Do you have a credible verifiable track record of leadership?
3. How will you provide substantive gains for all pilots within the contraints of Nicolau?
4. Will you support joint negotiations if USAPA fails?
5. How do you protect junior pilots from furlough under separate operations

USAPA SAYS POUND SAND

I am not in any official capacity with USAPA but it isn't too hard to make some obvious observations..

USAPA would never tell you to "pound sand" as they are the consummate professionals. Even Council 90 seems to have eluded to that with an expression of appreciation.

1. Evidently so. If they should be elected they will receive the dues that ALPA gets, and going forward it looks like they will have lower costs. (I know some say that USAPA won't be any different than ALPA, and in the following sense I will agree: the cycle of all governments is fairly common throughout history. A revolution occurs when the perception of the status quo of a government has devolved to an unbearable injustice that motivates members of the society to revolt and replace it with a reasonable government. A new government replaces it and the cycle of devolving back to a corrupt government resumes. So sure, USAPA will be just like ALPA... a good union for decades that will eventually need to be replaced. Hopefully that eventuality will occur years after our children retire.)

2. I thought their were some who would be impressed if USAPA could collect more than 100 cards?
3. The only relevant question is how will USAPA do it differently than ALPA?
4. USAPA has already said it will let the pilots decide.
5. Again only relevant question is "What is ALPA's record on preventing furlough And can USAPA do anything differently?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

When pilots are asked to make a choice as important as this, which will impact their careers for many years into the future, shouldn't they have a little more information regarding the solvency of one of the participants? For many, the raw emotion isn't enough. Why not offer some transparency to the finances of USAPA? The U-SAPs crowd pretends that this is a frathouse prank, when it is far from it

And if Bradford has decided to wade into this water, he'd better be able to fend off a shark or two.

WHAT IS USAPA TRYING TO HIDE

Answer to your first question: We're solvent enough to get to this point. There is plenty to carry us into building the new union. What you should really be asking is how much AAA east pilots pay in dues to ALPA and then how much AWA pays. Somewhere between 0 and the combined total is your answer to FUTURE cash flow and solvency. It will take considerably less cash to operate than what ALPA charges us.

We're not dealing with raw emotion, as so many of my west brethren would like to believe. Most assuredly this is not a prank.

Answer to your second question: We will after the election, as required by law. So once again what are you looking for? Other than flame baiting to prove what? I'll ask you, is the ALPA finances truly transparent? IMO not even close.

Steve Bradford and the rest of the USAPA leadership can handle themselves quite well.

Finally, USAPA is not trying to hide anything. If you are really interested in answers, I'll say again, go to the source rather than rely on a web board. Send to: Info@USAirlinePilots.org

 

[AAA73Pilot]

So when a prospective member asks:
USAPA SAYS POUND SAND

Your rants only make you look foolish. Pound sand.........now thats good

 

[sharktooth]

I know how solvent ALPA is. USAPA not so much.


WHY DOES USAPA OPPOSE ACCOUNTABILITY?

Accountability to what? You?

Post .pdfs of your last five years tax returns and, should USAPA become your agent, per Federal Law, they will post financials to date.

How about that?

 

[luvn737s]

USAPA would never tell you to "pound sand" as they are the consummate professionals.

You had me right up to that point.

The basis for my questions goes back to USAPA's total disregard of the west. They feel it's beneath them to make a presence and to offer legitimate proof that they are willing to represent all US pilots. Clearly they will not, and that is their downfall. Instead of coming to Phoenix in full force and explaining in detail their plan for unification without disenfranchisement, clarifying their finances which are questionable when the hotline basically goes begging for donations, and building a case for USAPA instead of merely against ALPA, they choose to stick to the east's M.O. of being elitist and aloof, and sending the POUND SAND message to the west loud and clear.

So the east relies on emotion and rhetoric ( tools that have failed to produce the type of leadership that ALL US pilots will follow) rather than reason and integrity. Thankfully, enough pilots are seeing through to what potentially lies on the other side of a USAPA victory to seriously question whether their vote should follow their card.

ALPA is solvent, with proven volunteers and staff who have proven successes. It has eviscerted itself in a futile attempt to placate the radical demands of the east. You can follow a group who has followed every protocol and made good on their pledge to remain engaged in joint negotiaitons by choosing the Union that work for ALL US pilots.

Say NO to USAPA.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

FYI:

MEC NewsDirect #3
January 24, 2008

The US Airways Three Man Panel/Steering Committee met Wednesday and Thursday this week with their counterparts, the America West Steering Committee in LAS. Both Steering committees agreed upon protocols and rules of engagement (ROEs), and have committed to meet next week for substantive discussions in order to address the issues of both pilot groups.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You had me right up to that point.

The basis for my questions goes back to USAPA's total disregard of the west. They feel it's beneath them to make a presence and to offer legitimate proof that they are willing to represent all US pilots. Clearly they will not, and that is their downfall. Instead of coming to Phoenix in full force and explaining in detail their plan for unification without disenfranchisement, clarifying their finances which are questionable when the hotline basically goes begging for donations, and building a case for USAPA instead of merely against ALPA, they choose to stick to the east's M.O. of being elitist and aloof, and sending the POUND SAND message to the west loud and clear.

So the east relies on emotion and rhetoric ( tools that have failed to produce the type of leadership that ALL US pilots will follow) rather than reason and integrity. Thankfully, enough pilots are seeing through to what potentially lies on the other side of a USAPA victory to seriously question whether their vote should follow their card.

ALPA is solvent, with proven volunteers and staff who have proven successes. It has eviscerted itself in a futile attempt to placate the radical demands of the east. You can follow a group who has followed every protocol and made good on their pledge to remain engaged in joint negotiaitons by choosing the Union that work for ALL US pilots.

Say NO to USAPA.

IMO. Just by virtue of your post, you have said it loud and clear that USAPA doesn't have a chance out west. Those westies who support us have already made up their minds. For the same reasons we on the east have made up our minds. All we have to do now is vote.

As for our finances being questionable, reread my earlier post. I ask again, what is your point? What do you want to know? Not that you would believe me anyway.

As for ALPA's solvency, that is still to be determined in the future. Seems to me they are in real jeopardy over 2 lawsuits that I know of.

How about:

Say NO to ALPA

 

[Phoenix]

It is no surprise that ALPA is in a fight for its life. All the senior leaders have said as much in more diplomatic terms.

In view of this it should be no difficulty to make an educated stab at what would be the most effective course of action for the ten-day lock down steering committee to take in order to “live to fight another day.â€

A notional three steps to defeat USAPA.

1. "This is all about Nic." Steer pilots away from a valid comparison of ALPA and USAPA as the CBA. Do this by placing a misleading question or statement about USAPA between a true statement followed by another true statement. 1) True, then 2) False, then 3) True.

Such as:

1) It is .. important to note that if USAPA were to prevail in an election, our lawsuit to review and vacate the Nicolau Award would likely disappear (True. ALPA’s lawsuit would end.)

2) And USAPA is also banking on us failing in our efforts to modify the Award with the AWA pilots, for if we are successful in any one of our efforts, it begs the question of USAPA’s legitimacy and relevance. (False. USAPA’s legitimacy does not hinge upon ALPA’s instances of illegitimacy. Or on ALPA repentance. USAPA’s legitimacy depends upon USAPA’s record, in the same manner that ALPA’s legitimacy depends upon their record.)

3) In contrast to USAPA’s interest in seeing us fail, ALPA is supporting our efforts with millions of dollars for Steering Committee work, communications, negotiations and the changing of OCF loans into grants. (Here they build upon a false statement followed with some more have truth. It was false that USAPA is vested in ALPA’s failure to fix Nic. Not only is this a false premise but then an “apples to oranges†comparison is presented. That is to say, USAPA is accused of trying to get ALPA to fail in revising the NIC in comparison to ALPA paying about 2 Million dollars to save ALPA in the representational election. ---- Of interest, USAPA is probably spending far less than 2 million to become the CBA. Money spent on the election would be a valid comparison of "apples to apples".

So ALPA’s argument seems to amount to accusing USAPA of exerting extraordinary effort to oppose ALPA while they spend about 2 million more dollars of your dues to fix Nic. Are you supposed to confuse the fixing of Nic with the representational election?

Since this is a representational election why don’t we just focus on what each representative is constitutionally constrained to do as the representative? (Have we forgotten that the ACPC cried aloud for the USAPA constitution and bylaws, but now that it has been presented the ACPC doesn’t want to make that comparison?)

2. Present the appearance of imminent ALPA Nic Fix. (Build this upon the peddled idea that Nic is the mistake that ALPA made and that USAPA ceases to be legitimate if ALPA repents of Nic… As if ALPA regains all legitimacy if Nic appears on the verge of being fixed.) Out of the ten-day lock down should we expect anything less than the appearance of a sure fire solution, right before the representational election?

3. Back to normal. We tried to do our best. Following a successful ALAP election the imminent ALPA solution would get further modified (and appear strangely similar to the first ALPA solution, in true ALPA fashion.)

This is not about Nic. Nic is just a symptom that highlights ALPA’s representational commitments and competing interests. ALPA has been around a long time and is skilled at what they due (pun intended).

USAPA’s constitution and bylaws are different for a reason.

This is about the premise of representation.

Vote your conscience.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You had me right up to that point.

The basis for my questions goes back to USAPA's total disregard of the west. They feel it's beneath them to make a presence and to offer legitimate proof that they are willing to represent all US pilots. Clearly they will not, and that is their downfall. Instead of coming to Phoenix in full force and explaining in detail their plan for unification without disenfranchisement, clarifying their finances which are questionable when the hotline basically goes begging for donations, and building a case for USAPA instead of merely against ALPA, they choose to stick to the east's M.O. of being elitist and aloof, and sending the POUND SAND message to the west loud and clear.

So the east relies on emotion and rhetoric ( tools that have failed to produce the type of leadership that ALL US pilots will follow) rather than reason and integrity. Thankfully, enough pilots are seeing through to what potentially lies on the other side of a USAPA victory to seriously question whether their vote should follow their card.

ALPA is solvent, with proven volunteers and staff who have proven successes. It has eviscerted itself in a futile attempt to placate the radical demands of the east. You can follow a group who has followed every protocol and made good on their pledge to remain engaged in joint negotiaitons by choosing the Union that work for ALL US pilots.

Say NO to USAPA.

With all due respect...you were most likely going to say no anyway. No matter how much "explaining" is done, you continue to say no. You guys even skewer your own (which I'll admit seems to be a blood sport on the East as well) which indicates that maybe, just maybe, a new path can be found with different representation. This "extreme" of changing representation is the ultimate result of a POLICY WITH NO POLICY. It was bound to happen.

It's not your fault, not my fault..it's a LEADERSHIP fault. And therein lies the essential crux of the matter. Lack of leadership leads to revolution. Those revolting either chose a new system of law or anarchy. Why should unions be exempt?

 

[cactusboy53]

Take your seniority back!!!!!

America West pilots should not get years they do NOT deserve.

Bring it on!!!!

SO WITCHIE-POO;
MAY I ASSUME THAT IF ALPA STAYS YOU WILL "MAN-UP" AND FINALLY PARTICIPATE IN YOUR JOINT UNION ACTION AND HELP TO SECURE A NEW CONTRACT THROUGH ALPA (THAT WOULD STILL BE YOUR CBA OF LATE)???

YOU USAPA BAG HOLDERS ARE HELL BENT ON SECURING THAT GEM OF A 737 SEAT GOING TO GARDEN SPOTS IN UP STATE NY. GOOD THING THAT YOU DON'T NEED ANY MORE MONEY, HUH???

PS...BEEN AROUND THE BLOCK IN VARIOUS PROPERTIES......WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU DESERVE BETTER THAN THE NICOLAU......BTW....THAT WOULD BE BINDING ARBITRATION.........DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS??

 

[exB717Flyer]

One hurdle done, should move along now....

Wasn't a hurdle; was a forgone conclusion.

Let's get the election and let the real fun begin. My prediction: the silent majority at USAirways East realize that USAPA will benefit them naught. Elections aren't won by talking mouths on message boards.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

What is the benefit of USAPA to the west?

 

[ableoneable]

Wasn't a hurdle; was a forgone conclusion.

Let's get the election and let the real fun begin. My prediction: the silent majority at USAirways East realize that USAPA will benefit them naught. Elections aren't won by talking mouths on message boards.

OH MY FREAKING GOD

It is more than likely that there will be an election.

The outcome: Who the F knows. It could go either way.

Can we just give it a rest until we know the actual results. I can't take another full thread of this; we will decertify and here's why, no we won't and here's why crap.

USA320's old posts look like well reasoned thought compared to the last couple of ALPO threads.

Everyone should find that alarming.

 

[TheLarkAscending]

USA320's old posts look like well reasoned thought compared to the last couple of ALPO threads.

Exaggerating a point will not make it valid.