Alpa Merger Seniority Integration
- Thread starter USA320Pilot
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I too lived through the Piedmont merger, and NEVER heard ANYONE say "put em at the bottom, we bought em" So my friend......NOT everybody was saying it. Most people at USAIRWAYS are professionals who would not take part in this petty bickering. Most people at USAIRWAYS want this merger to work. Most people at USAIRWAYS are looking forward to working with the former HP employees. And above all, MOST people at USAIRWAYS want to see the seniority issue handled equitably. I dont't have the answers to what would be fair, but I agree with HP folks that something does need to be done to recognize their longevity. Some of the people there have been there through the entire lifespan of the company, and it would be sad to see them punished.
Too bad the unions cant be handled the same way as MSP scalers.....weed out the dead wood. How many posters to this forum would we then lose?
Too bad the unions cant be handled the same way as MSP scalers.....weed out the dead wood. How many posters to this forum would we then lose?
lynyrdskynyrd
Veteran
- Apr 22, 2005
- 1,182
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N924PS said:
I agree with you about the pid, the sooner the better, its time to get the show on the road. Not to long ago I flew with an AAA furloughee, he is an outstanding pilot and a good guy, I remember thinking that if this guy is a typical example of an AAA pilot that that is a good sign. He also had kind words for the AAA group at large, another good sign I thought. Anyway, enough internet bloviating, its time for the pid, this stuff will get done, might as well start now.
RowUnderDCA
Veteran
- Oct 6, 2002
- 2,123
- 1
ClueByFour said:
Seriously, upon what information did these folks make a rational 'better choice?'
How did these folks determine a 'better time?'
This is a roll of the dice. This instability and uncertainty and randomness is hurting our society... ESPECIALLY because the results are SO divergent.
C'mon, what do you tell your kids..... spend 10s of thousands of dollars and/or YEARS of your life to get training in some field that you don't know won't be outsourced and on TOP of it, make sure you were born at the right time, get married at the right time, hit the workforce at the right time, have kids at the right time OH AND ALSO get an extra MBA so you can analize EVERYTHING about the prospects of a certain company over say a 20 30 40 year period!
People will do nothing and become extremely risk-averse. That is not good for society. But who cares, the haves will just build the walls higher and thicker around their gated communities and hope that bird flu doesn't come in on the next Canada Goose, because government might just have some richer folk that need attention.
justaumechanic
Veteran
- Dec 15, 2003
- 578
- 0
One in Chapter 11, one not. One can't get out of Chapter 11 without the help of the other.
The investors did not pony up money because of Lakefield, they ponied it up for the assets and
because Doug was going to be the CEO.. He's done a good job at AmericaWest.
It is an operational merger. For corporate purposes it was a buy out.
Without AmericaWest there would be no US Airways.. No one was willing to put the money on
the table. No one. Without the moeny US Airways could not get out of Chapter 11 and you know
it. The case would have been transferred to Chapter 7 and an immediate shut down would have
occured. Assets would have been sold and everyone would have been on the street.
And its real easy to be a 25 year person and say "Oh DOH is the way to go because thats fair"..
Why should anyone at AmericaWest have to be below you? You come from a dead company.
Simple as that.. Be thankful you have a job.
Lynyrd,
You won't lose your seat. Under ALPA merger policy everyone will retain their current seat, you may be at the bottom of the Captain's list but you won't fall off it. AWA did USAir a BIG favor by agreeing to merge with them. Hang in there, you'll still have that fourth stripe.
exB717Flyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,106
- 599
This is/was a merger.
Neither side is "saving" the other and even if they did we employees had nothing to do with it.
Both sides deserve better careers but that's irrelevant.
"Career Expectations" is a self-serving, subjective opinion. Only someone not affected can determine them.
ALPA merger policy is a fair process, come what may.
The worst-case scenario must be planned for: furloughs. I say the pain should be shared. What ratio? Talk amongst yourselves...
AWA FO
Ex-TWA
Neither side is "saving" the other and even if they did we employees had nothing to do with it.
Both sides deserve better careers but that's irrelevant.
"Career Expectations" is a self-serving, subjective opinion. Only someone not affected can determine them.
ALPA merger policy is a fair process, come what may.
The worst-case scenario must be planned for: furloughs. I say the pain should be shared. What ratio? Talk amongst yourselves...
AWA FO
Ex-TWA
Date Of Hire is a Windfall AND the BEST deal for ALL! Nobody Will Lose Anything! And in 5 to 7 Years everyone is a captain! What is wrorng with that? Also if US sits status quo we,re dead anyway so some growth must be in the card's. Stop sweating it.WEEEEE ALLLLL WIN!
markkus757
Veteran
- Jul 26, 2004
- 598
- 1
I'm not an employee of this airline, but I think I try to stay informed and wade through all the BS to get to the facts of any topic here. IMO, I believe that if you are currently a Captain with the merged airline, you should stay there. The list for this group should be as follows: All pilots go on the list first. They would go in line based upon longevity in position. The second group should be all first officers, placed in line the same way as the pilots. Last should obviously be any furloughs, including the J4J personnel that are not at mainline. They should remain on furlough until the employees ahead of them move up. My reasoning is this. No one forced anyone to stick around through the bad times and put up with the crap at their company. Other opportunites have been there at other airlines in the past. You risked your career staying here when you realized that maybe this airline might not survive either BK. I'm not saying that you shouldn't pat youself on the back for the sacrifices, but this whole attitude of "I sacrificed therefore where is my reward" does not fly right now. Both groups need to work together now because you are coworkers now. Maybe it was right to screw over that person in the past, but I wouldn't give this company a chance in hell to survive if that doesn't change.
L
luvn737s
Guest
And who loses when the merger goes through it's first financial hiccup? One guess.
fatherabraham
Veteran
- Sep 27, 2002
- 814
- 354
RowUnderDCA,
Wow, a breath of fresh air. A post w/o a self serving agenda! I too have kids and would like to pass on a better work environment than the " what's in it for me generation of today " folks.
FA
PID should of been established as of last May. The merger committee has been very evasive on that issue-claiming at an August meeting in PHL that May was going to be the PID. Your merger committee has also dropped DOH as our negotiating position at US Airways. They are also trying to frame our expectations on the issue by saying that DOH would be an unreasonable position in fron of an arbitrator and that as a result, the arb could "punish" us by over slotting AWA pilots. I say DOH with fences you can see from the space station. In 5 years I and alot of pilots from US will be gone so it will be a moot point!
D9ever
elixir
Senior
- Jun 2, 2005
- 385
- 0
Regarding "saving/buying/merging"
Just flew on HP several legs over the weekend. There seems to be a grassroots movement to publicize to the pax that HP "bought and thereby saved" Airways. This is not only untrue, but smacks of martrdom. While this is a sensitive subject, HP offered up not a penny of the funding involved in this MERGER, nor did U. The combination of the two, coupled with the faith in DP, Airbus's greed for 350 orders, and ACE's desire for transborder flying, and exclusive MX functions drove this deal...period. So lets just stop the "who did what for whom" game. HP had no growth plans, no aircraft orders, and were stagnant in their ever-present battle with WN.
U was on life support...but the theoretical synergies drew money from the above-mentioned sources, as well as a few others...none of which was HP.
Lets drop it, and make a great carrier so we can all finish out some semblance of a career.
Just flew on HP several legs over the weekend. There seems to be a grassroots movement to publicize to the pax that HP "bought and thereby saved" Airways. This is not only untrue, but smacks of martrdom. While this is a sensitive subject, HP offered up not a penny of the funding involved in this MERGER, nor did U. The combination of the two, coupled with the faith in DP, Airbus's greed for 350 orders, and ACE's desire for transborder flying, and exclusive MX functions drove this deal...period. So lets just stop the "who did what for whom" game. HP had no growth plans, no aircraft orders, and were stagnant in their ever-present battle with WN.
U was on life support...but the theoretical synergies drew money from the above-mentioned sources, as well as a few others...none of which was HP.
Lets drop it, and make a great carrier so we can all finish out some semblance of a career.
aquagreen73s
Veteran
- Aug 22, 2005
- 1,979
- 1,877
>>Your merger committee has also dropped DOH as our negotiating position at US Airways. They are also trying to frame our expectations on the issue by saying that DOH would be an unreasonable position in fron of an arbitrator and that as a result, the arb could "punish" us by over slotting AWA pilots. I say DOH with fences you can see from the space station. <<
DOH is DOA. Longevity has a little bit of life in it, but DOH is not going to happen: way too expensive to implement. Mark my words, this will go exactly like Pan-Am/National. Why? Because the merger is almost a dead-ringer. Because the "unfairness" arguments from the Pan-Am/National merger have already been argued in federal court following the merger and all challenges lost. That means there is already precedent for this sort of integration. It's the safest way out for the arbitrator, the unions (national leadership, of course) and the two airlines. And that's what everyone wants; just dispose of it as soon as possible. Anybody expecting something other than a ratio based on longevity will be disappointed.
>>In 5 years I and alot of pilots from US will be gone so it will be a moot point! <<
Agree, but that won't stop DOH from being DOA.
DOH is DOA. Longevity has a little bit of life in it, but DOH is not going to happen: way too expensive to implement. Mark my words, this will go exactly like Pan-Am/National. Why? Because the merger is almost a dead-ringer. Because the "unfairness" arguments from the Pan-Am/National merger have already been argued in federal court following the merger and all challenges lost. That means there is already precedent for this sort of integration. It's the safest way out for the arbitrator, the unions (national leadership, of course) and the two airlines. And that's what everyone wants; just dispose of it as soon as possible. Anybody expecting something other than a ratio based on longevity will be disappointed.
>>In 5 years I and alot of pilots from US will be gone so it will be a moot point! <<
Agree, but that won't stop DOH from being DOA.
EyeInTheSky
Veteran
It's going to go to an arbitrator. Yeah, I remember the Piedmont merger-- the arbitrator completely threw out their "career expectations" argument. ...it's always something and this one will be decided by a third party. And, the saying "if everyone's pissed, it means it was fair.." Let the reindeer games begin..
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