Allowing Bk Carriers To Destroy The Industry

[Busdrvr]

You can blame it on anything and everything but you can't blame Ua or U for your losses. Your management chose not to raise prices and in many cases lowered prices.

It's the equivelent of a wh0re critisizing a nun for being late to chior practice. 🙄

 

[uafa21]

A good one busdriver.

 

[mweiss]

Weiss:the content of your replies are sophmoric...furthermore you are NOT an employee of this industry whom has a vested interest.

On the contrary, they are carefully reasoned, in part because I don't have a vested interest in the outcome. Simply disagreeing with me is not sufficient reason to try to discredit me. If anything, it suggests that you're over your head.

An across the board hike at that time would have sent MORE high fare business travelers fleeing to LCCs. Something the majors could ill afford. That is why NWA did not go long with past hikes.

And, yet, had NW kept the increases in the non-Y buckets, they probably would have stuck. Why didn't that happen?

An inexperienced move like yesterday will not doubt initiate a fare war and speed the end for both.

And just who are you to decide that the move was "inexperienced?" A company desperate for cash electing to have a sale to drum up cash is hardly "inexperienced." You wishing that they'd just go away doesn't make their decision "inexperienced," either.

Northwest should not stop operating because it is a solvent corporation...paying it's bills and providing a service for it's employees and the public.

Nor will it. NW has some enviable assets that should be put to better use. The world has changed, and NW needs to change with it. Simply going to the employees with a hand out is leading NW down the same path that US has already trodden, and will ultimately lead to the same demise.

The difference is simply because personal BK (change) benefits corparate donars. Corporate BK reduces employee cost and BENEFITS corporate DONARS.

[post="253950"][/post]​

It's far more complex than that. Just as a single example, when a company files for bankruptcy, the creditors legally gain ownership of the company. With the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment, ownership of people became illegal in this country, so your creditors cannot legally own you when you file for personal bankruptcy.

 

[North by Northwest]

Well "grasshopper", the only reason UAL and DAL's pilot rates were "too high" was that your's (and others) were "too low". It's the "free market" right? Guess what, because of your previous actions, you helped drive down salaries. no YOUR pay is "too high". Lucky for you, whn your company "restructures", there will be a strong post BK UAL stopping your attempts to generate revenue, lobbying congress against you at every step, and calling for your liquidation. And even better for you, despite an incredibly high debt level, yu're blessed with one of the oldest most inefficient fleets in the business. Packbacks a "senior NWA FA" Do you really consider yourself "solvent"? If you guys got it made, then why would you need to match payrates at UAL? Why would the pension need to be frozen? It'll get even funnier when SWA runds out of "low hanging U fruit" and comes after MSP and MEM...

[post="253985"][/post]​

"Well "grasshopper", the only reason UAL and DAL's pilot rates were "too high" was that your's (and others) were "too low"" Leave DAL out of it...they'er not in BK. "Lucky for you, whn your company "restructures", there will be a strong post BK UAL stopping your attempts to generate revenue, lobbying congress against you at every step, and calling for your liquidation" Hope and prey you are still around. "And even better for you, despite an incredibly high debt level, yu're blessed with one of the oldest most inefficient fleets in the business" Old fleet? I assume you are referring to our glorious paid for DC-9s. Yes we are blessed. Blessed to be able to accept over 200 new aircraft since 2000, and continue to accept more ( 9 new additional A330s pre-financed). Too bad for Ual you don't have'em (paid for DC-9s, or the ability to finance a pair of shoes). You'd still have a job if you did. High debt...yes, and we are paying it. Something Ual is incapable of doing. "Packbacks a "senior NWA FA" Thank you. They have been known to be one when dealing with bitter, unemployed, indigents with problems functioning in society."It's the equivelent of a wh0re " At least you know your name.

 

[mweiss]

At least you know your name.

[post="254002"][/post]​

Remind me again...which one of us is sophomoric? :huh:

I assume you are referring to our glorious paid for DC-9s.

Those 9s (and the 10s that are leaving the fleet) made sense during the 90s, with high yields and relatively cheap fuel. They've become more of an albatross now that oil is at $55/bbl. Nonetheless, it was an interesting, unique, and successful strategy. It may be the one decision that, more than any other, is why NW is not in bankruptcy today.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

Busdrvr seems to support any UA scheme.

Certainly he was on the fast-track to upper management at UA before the esteemed Jake Brace realized they couldn't pay him.

 

[North by Northwest]

"Houston-based Continental said that revenue will be trimmed by $200 million, a larger figure than an earlier estimate of $150 million. By lowering fares, airlines have induced more travelers to take to the skies. But the prices are so aggressive that it's hard to lift overall sales once the discounting starts and competitors like upstart low-fare carriers jockey for each passengers' business.

Continental also said in the filing that because more people are flying, its operating results could suffer due to the costs associated with the traffic increase."
The American aviation landscape will look drastically different by next Dec.05

 

[Cosmo]

"Houston-based Continental said that revenue will be trimmed by $200 million, a larger figure than an earlier estimate of $150 million. By lowering fares, airlines have induced more travelers to take to the skies. But the prices are so aggressive that it's hard to lift overall sales once the discounting starts and competitors like upstart low-fare carriers jockey for each passengers' business.

Continental also said in the filing that because more people are flying, its operating results could suffer due to the costs associated with the traffic increase."
The American aviation landscape will look drastically different by next Dec.05

Just to be clear, this statement from Continental was in regard to Delta's "Simplifares" and not the more recent (and limited) fare reductions put in place by United and US Airways, which is the subject of this thread. You can read more about Continental's comments in this AP article.

 

[UALDC767]

providing a service for it's employees and the public.

So are you saying UAL doesn't provide a service?

That will be news to the employees and the passengers who fly UAL. Both numbers which are still in greater numbers than Northwest, as far as I know. Near the tops in on time performance and fewest mishandled bags. In fact since C-11, those numbers have only improved. So who is providing the public the greater service?

 

[North by Northwest]

So are you saying UAL doesn't provide a service?

That will be news to the employees and the passengers who fly UAL. Both numbers which are still in greater numbers than Northwest, as far as I know. Near the tops in on time performance and fewest mishandled bags. In fact since C-11, those numbers have only improved. So who is providing the public the greater service?
Do you really want to go there?. It shouldn't TAKE Bankruptcy to provide good service. NWA has spent DECADES at the top in performance...OUT of Bankruptcy. The bottom line ...you had better pray that Ual's fare cuts generate enough cash (to be around) to provid ANYKIND of service next year. It was a stupid thing to do by all accounts. A move that points to NOTHING but desparation. A move that signals to rivals a pending fatality. Having nothing left to hock, fare cuts to fill planes is an airline gasping for air while sinking under the water."Both numbers which are still in greater numbers than Northwest" WOW...who freakin cares. The ONLY numbers that are important are the numbers that say "debts PAID". How many employees you have or how many pax you fly is meaningless when your operation is BROKEN. Part of the problem that has permeated Ual is psychotic denial. Hello...anybody home? Ual is not the big rich airline it became because of Pan Am bankruptcy...git it. Good God, some of you people still have the audacity to actually attempt to put down a rival operation that runs rings around a bankrupt corporation. WHEN and IF Ual comes out of BANKRUPTCY it can consider itself an airline that is worthy of competition. Ual has ONLY lasted this long because J.P Morgan, GE Capital and a few others have BILLIONS tied up in it. Period. The employees had better say nightly prayer that NWA does not lock in concessions across the table over the next few months. If they do...it will be the burial song playing instead of Gerswin.

 

[Busdrvr]

Do you really want to go there?. It shouldn't TAKE Bankruptcy to provide good service. NWA has spent DECADES at the top in performance...OUT of Bankruptcy.

Please tug gently and put on the mask. You sound hypoxic

It was a stupid thing to do by all accounts. A move that points to NOTHING but desparation. A move that signals to rivals a pending fatality. Having nothing left to hock, fare cuts to fill planes is an airline gasping for air while sinking under the water

Desperate like stuffing your retirement account with shares from part of your own company?

WOW...who freakin cares. The ONLY numbers that are important are the numbers that say "debts PAID".

So you guys paid off all your debt? Gosh, I didn't see that press release....

Ual is not the big rich airline it became because of Pan Am bankruptcy...git it.

UAL was the largest airline in the U.S. PRIOR to the Pan Am route purchase. Where was NWA when Pan Am was selling Europe and LHR? If all it took was a little cash to "be great"? Was your management too stupid?

Ual has ONLY lasted this long because J.P Morgan, GE Capital and a few others have BILLIONS tied up in it. Period.

Whatever 🙄 . the mentioned companies made some pretty good cash on the DIP financing deal. GE was actually turned down by UAL in the intial DIP deal cause we didn't like the terms. Who's desperate?

The employees had better say nightly prayer that NWA does not lock in concessions across the table over the next few months. If they do...it will be the burial song playing instead of Gerswin.

I'm sure NWA will lead the way with concessions. After all the "cobra" pilot group "struck" first prior to UAL's BK, and NWA AMFA has shown the way when it comes to outsourcing. You're pathetic 🙄

Old fleet? I assume you are referring to our glorious paid for DC-9s. Yes we are blessed. Blessed to be able to accept over 200 new aircraft since 2000, and continue to accept more ( 9 new additional A330s pre-financed). Too bad for Ual you don't have'em (paid for DC-9s, or the ability to finance a pair of shoes).

Hmm, what was it your bought? let's see, you paid new prices for a 400 while they were fetching virtually nothing on the resale market. Real smart move .

then you loaded up on a b@stard 757-300 fleet, that virtually no one else saw as a viable airframe. And now the 330? yeah it's such a better airframe than the 777.... 🙄

If you haven't noticed, AB will finance that guy on the corner with the 'will work for food sign". they financed FlyI with it's -50% margins. We're supposed to be impressed that you were able to work a "deal" with them?

As to the "9's", what a fricken joke. If they were such an economical jet, you'd be buying all the used ones on the resale market, getting some cheap AMFA outsourced checks done on them and flying them for 30 more years. But you're NOT. even ValuJet parked the 9. It's just about as fuel efficient as a 72 Coupe DeVille that needs a tuneup. And when the weather gets bad, it's time to divert. NWA flies them because it's ALL THEY HAVE 🙄 But considering they are 'paid for" how is it again that NWA is so deeply in debt.....

 

[Bigsky]

Back to basics, Gents. The problem with UAL is that their only business plan has been to continually and relentlessly slash labor costs. It's a rudderless ship that was once a great clipper with some of the best on it's crew. Most of the crew is still around, however, with the oil man from Texas at the helm try to hold on what's left in your wallet.

 

[Bigsky]

As to the "9's", what a fricken joke. If they were such an economical jet,

blah, blah, blah

Average lease payment on a UAL 737-300, your DC-9 equivalent is around 125,000 per month. Lease payement on a NWA DC-9-30 our 737-300 equivalent is zero, nada, nil.

Chances are, Bussy, that you have never flown a Douglas aircraft and don't know that the aircraft is way overbuilt. Why get rid of something that works. Yea, you pay little more in gas but a lot less to the lessor. Cheers

 

[Vikedog64]

I agree. The nonbankrupt legacy airlines are still paying their bills (including contributions to their employee pension plans) while UA and US have failed to do so. And desperate for cash, UA and US have helped drive down fares to levels so low that all will end up in Ch 11.

They both contribute to the excess domestic capacity that is causing historic low fares.

It's long past time to throw some out of the sinking lifeboat so that some may survive.

[post="253672"][/post]​

Not only that, butUAL has hedges in place..How in the h..l did they accomplish that??? :angry:

 

[North by Northwest]

Concerned with how NWA is operating... now that is a joke. Try it our way you might have a job next year. Why is it you contiually exhibit emotional imbalance when discussing reality? Ual = Broke, flying around in aircraft looking over their sholder for the REPO man. If I were you I would make sure I cash my pay check the same day. You are the SAME guy that is a continuous embarasment to Ual employees . Ual owns NOTHING...get it loser. Ual can't even finance a DC-9. Little history lesson Grasshopper, NWA was flying the Pacific when "international" for Ual was NY=LA. Ual won't even last 25 years in the international arena. So much for flying someone elses 777's. I'd take our "experience" for choice of aircraft any day. Take your severace pay and get some therapy. How in the hell did you get past the psych eval? Now say a prayer before bed that NWA does not announce a fare cut down the road. (Busdvr .. E asinus asinorum in saecula saeculorum)