Allowing Bk Carriers To Destroy The Industry

[coolflyingfool]

I say that if a company cannot make it out of BK inside of 2 years, you shut them down. Sorry. But to force NWA and all the others to adjust to carriers that do not have to pay all their bills and can shed a/c and force lessors to renegotiate leases is not fair. I would love to see SWA, NWA, CAL, AMR, and DL all file for BK and see what the courts have to say. It is not fair that some airlines make money and others can't. Just my thoughts as I get off my soapbox.........

 

[CaptianBoomer]

North by NWA:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but part of the reason for the shape the business is in can be laid at the feet of NWA.

For the past few years, CAL was a leader in attempting to raise fares. Generally, everyone matched. NWA was often the spoiler in this arena, letting everyone else raise fares and then either refusing to or raising them initially and then reversing the decision. NWA wasn't the spoiler EVERY time, but most of the time.

This latest fare boost was NWA's first attempt if memory serves.

This business is completely cutthroat. IMO, the airlines that haven't let the price increases stick were just trying to push a weaker competitor off the cliff.

Boomer

 

[mweiss]

Due to no fault of our own, we are fast approaching the pay scale and standard of living of those operating under protection from creditors.

It's also not caused by their Chapter 11 filing.

The idea that employees of solvent companies should some how suffer the inemptitude of amature management of bankrupt carriers is asinine.

It is. However, that's not what's happening. Are you really that blind to the forces of the market?

Furthermore, had it been Northwest and Continental announcing price cuts at the same time the Justice Dept.'s anti-COLLUSION police would be screaming price fixing anti-trust INVESTIGATION!

Um...no, they wouldn't. Show me a single instance in history where two carriers announcing price cuts simultaneously resulted in a price fixing investigation. Just one will do.

With all due respect, if the shoes were on the other foot, every single employee at Ual AND U would be screaming bloody murder if they saw their wages and working conditions deteriorate because of NWA and AMR spinning around in Bankruptcy.

[post="253692"][/post]​

If the shoe were on the other foot, the employees there would be complaining, true. That doesn't make it any more correct. It just means that they'd be just as wrong.

 

[mweiss]

...to force NWA and all the others to adjust to carriers that do not have to pay all their bills and can shed a/c and force lessors to renegotiate leases is not fair.

[post="253769"][/post]​

Did you know that NWA can avoid paying bills, shed aircraft, and force lessors to renegotiate leases without filing for bankruptcy? Furthermore, I'll bet that some of it has already happened...but it doesn't have to be public information when it happens outside of a bankruptcy court.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

So, would you suggest that bankruptcy laws should require the liquidation of a bankrupt company above that company's creidtors' wishes? Isn't bankruptcy a procedure to protect the creditors, not a procedure for industrial policy?

 

[funguy2]

North by Northwest I agree with you in principal but the fact is now that Ua and U All of this at the exspense of the taxpayers, employees, municipalities, airport authorities, lessors and creditors both secured and unsecured. Because of this othew airlines will have to somehow follow suit.

There are a lot of reasons for these cuts. You can blame all day on who is at fault but the fact remains that now Ua and U have cut cost and the only way for Nw, AA, cal, and dal to remain competetive is to cut cost as well. The envirnment we operate in has changed. It changed through political means, terrorist means and economic means. LLC's have changed the way they operate and they have taken a huge domestic market share. Don't think they are through.

How do you explain to the shareholders of a solvent (although currently loss producing) company (i.e. the owners) that they can no longer own the company because if they do, the company can not compete effectively?

The purpose of BK is not to lower costs, its to protect creditors... It just so happens that lowering costs helps creditors. It helps shareholders too, so long as their stock is not wiped out... If I were a shareholder of AMR, DAL, NWAC, or CAL, I would be fighting tooth and nail against a BK filing... And, its important to remember that the threat of BK can be very powerful for concessions. US Airways got employee concessions with the threat of BK... FlyI recently, and AWA a few years ago, got concessions from lessors and others with only the threat of BK...

 

[North by Northwest]

"It's also not caused by their Chapter 11 filing." Wow...(tell that to Ual/ U retierees) just how do you think the employees of Ual/ U came about the wages they currently have? Just how do you think solvent carriers can stay competitive while paying higher salaries above their competitiors? That's a real bright statement, sounds like Tilton-omics. RowDca, the creditors have not had a say thanks to Ual's fluncky Jundge in Chicago. If NWA were in Uals shoes I most certainly would be demanding more than a just a job paying wages 1/4 of what I spent decades building, with a very high probability of ending up with nothing. As for the NWA being the spoil sport with raising fares, economics dictated that it wasn't prudent at the time. One thing you can take to the bank on this most recent fare sale...with oil above $50 a barrel, I will put my money on the liqudation of Ual/ U before the bankruptcy of NWA. It is such a pity that both companies are being run into the ground by two amatures.

 

[North by Northwest]

"Good luck to us 'all' as the court systems are not in our favor."

Ual tech, no truer statement ever spoken.

 

[mweiss]

just how do you think the employees of Ual/ U came about the wages they currently have?

Hmmm...as I recall, they voted for them. Moreover, just because they took paycuts doesn't mean you have to. See below:

Just how do you think solvent carriers can stay competitive while paying higher salaries above their competitiors?

Your airline is rather inefficient in use of resources. Improving efficiency would allow NW to be competitive without having to resort to paycuts.

If NWA were in Uals shoes I most certainly would be demanding more than a just a job paying wages 1/4 of what I spent decades building, with a very high probability of ending up with nothing.

Easy for you to say from where you sit.

As for the NWA being the spoil sport with raising fares, economics dictated that it wasn't prudent at the time.

[post="253855"][/post]​

In most markets, they still do. Something to think about. :huh:

 

[UALDC767]

[b}
" the creditors have not had a say thanks to Ual's fluncky Jundge in Chicago. If NWA were in Uals shoes I most certainly would be demanding more than a just a job paying wages 1/4 of what I spent decades building, with a very high probability of ending up with nothing."

First the creditors at UAL are very involved with the situation and the judge. They do have a say. Ever hear of a Creditor's Committee? They have not protested the extensions given. Doesn't mean they won't or haven't raised issues with UAL but nothing so far as to question it publicly before the judge in court. Any employees are way, way down the list or creditors, even us "ESOP owners".

{quote} "As for the NWA being the spoil sport with raising fares, economics dictated that it wasn't prudent at the time."

What ecomonics and prudent for whom? Northwest or for the entire industry? You can't escape the fact that Northwest played spoil sport over the past several years. And then to #### when someone else does it to you. That's hypocrisy. Obviously UAL/US decided it was in their best economic interests to have a fare sale. I wish all airlines would raise their fares by $50 one way to offset gas, but I don't make those decisions.

But you want UAL to go away to pretect your own self interests. Well I happen to disagree with that and UAL is doing what it takes to survive. How ever painful it might be for the employees. Why doesn't Northwest just pack up and stop operating? That certainly would help the industry (and me) by your logic.

DC

 

[Busdrvr]

BOO HOO

I think I'll cry a river for you. I don't think airlines should get an unfair advantage by getting loans from a state at lower rates than they would normally have paid to keep them out of BK.

YOUR company wanted UAL to be denied the loan before and during BK. YOUR weak@ss pilot group agreed to contract rates far below UAL's prior to BK. You got what you wanted. Be a man and take the consequences.

 

[North by Northwest]

MWeiss"Hmmm...as I recall, they voted for them. Moreover, just because they took paycuts doesn't mean you have to. See below" Weiss:the content of your replies are sophmoric...furthermore you are NOT an employee of this industry whom has a vested interest. Share an adult comment please. UalDC737:"What ecomonics and prudent for whom? Northwest or for the entire industry? You can't escape the fact that Northwest played spoil sport over the past several years. And then to #### when someone else does it to you. That's hypocrisy. Obviously UAL/US decided it was in their best economic interests to have a fare sale. I wish all airlines would raise their fares by $50 one way to offset gas, but I don't make those decisions.
Most fare hikes in the past were across the board. NWA decieded it simply was not a wise business decision to place a hike on it's highest fares. Those fares are usually purchased by last minute business travelers, travelers already paying the highest fares in the industry. An across the board hike at that time would have sent MORE high fare business travelers fleeing to LCCs. Something the majors could ill afford. That is why NWA did not go long with past hikes.
First the creditors at UAL are very involved with the situation and the judge. They do have a say. Ever hear of a Creditor's Committee? They have not protested the extensions given. Doesn't mean they won't or haven't raised issues with UAL but nothing so far as to question it publicly before the judge in court. Any employees are way, way down the list or creditors, even us "ESOP owners". The group of creditors that attempted to take control of it's leased planes a few months ago might disagree with you, as might thousands of others. But you want UAL to go away to pretect your own self interests. Well I happen to disagree with that and UAL is doing what it takes to survive. How ever painful it might be for the employees. Why doesn't Northwest just pack up and stop operating? That certainly would help the industry (and me) by your logic.
Ual/ U, both have demonstrated that they are desparate for cash. An inexperienced move like yesterday will not doubt initiate a fare war and speed the end for both. Those two are the least able to with stand a drop in revenue. A fare war will consume both faster then a wild fire in August. Northwest should not stop operating because it is a solvent corporation...paying it's bills and providing a service for it's employees and the public. If the Republican Administration, Senate, and Congress spent as much time on reforming corporate Bankruptcy (vs. personal)rather than beating down consumers, we would see immediate change. The difference is simply because personal BK (change) benefits corparate donars. Corporate BK reduces employee cost and BENEFITS corporate DONARS. These people have been bought and sold more times than a 15 year ol used car.

 

[North by Northwest]

Busdrv:"YOUR company wanted UAL to be denied the loan before and during BK. YOUR weak@ss pilot group agreed to contract rates far below UAL's prior to BK. You got what you wanted. Be a man and take the consequences. " You mean the rates that drove Ual into Bankruptcy? I am sure your fellow Ual employees could think of a few words stronger than "weak@ss pilot" to address you by. I am sure they are thankful for your part in Ual's lightspeed decent into destruction. Sadly, the consequences will be the end of your company, mind (NWA) will indeed go on. Much to your delight. One must think long-term Grasshopper. That is why you are whereyou are at now (bankrupt, bottom tier wages, pending liquidation) , and,...we are where we are at... now(solvent, top tier wages, ongoing operation).

 

[uafa21]

In several weeks when all the annual reports come out for the major carriers take a look at them. Look at the deficits most all will have in the retained earnings. Read some of the notes and see what is in them. Look at and compare fleet sizes from last years notes.

See what pension liabilities are out there for each carrier. Then go back and look at last years (2004) net profit (which you won't find with any of the big seven except SWA) and try to realize how are the bills, leases, salaries, pension plans, ect ect ect going to be paid. Right now they are being paid with nothing but cash generation, there's nothing going back to company for infastructure.

At NW you have some new airbuses and at Cal they have a couple of new planes as well, but the rest (except SWA) have nothing and nothing planned. There is no money for replacing fleets.

North by Northwest - you can sit here all day long and say what you want. Ua and U are in bk and have cut and continue to cut cost and not even enough yet. When your 1st quater report comes out in April it will be interesting to see how NW has done. I'll bet not very well. You can blame it on anything and everything but you can't blame Ua or U for your losses. Your management chose not to raise prices and in many cases lowered prices.

 

[Busdrvr]

Busdrv:"YOUR company wanted UAL to be denied the loan before and during BK. YOUR weak@ss pilot group agreed to contract rates far below UAL's prior to BK. You got what you wanted. Be a man and take the consequences. " You mean the rates that drove Ual into Bankruptcy? I am sure your fellow Ual employees could think of a few words stronger than "weak@ss pilot" to address you by. I am sure they are thankful for your part in Ual's lightspeed decent into destruction. Sadly, the consequences will be the end of your company, mind (NWA) will indeed go on. Much to your delight. One must think long-term Grasshopper. That is why you are whereyou are at now (bankrupt, bottom tier wages, pending liquidation) , and,...we are where we are at... now(solvent, top tier wages, ongoing operation).

[post="253958"][/post]​

Well "grasshopper", the only reason UAL and DAL's pilot rates were "too high" was that your's (and others) were "too low". It's the "free market" right? Guess what, because of your previous actions, you helped drive down salaries. no YOUR pay is "too high". Lucky for you, whn your company "restructures", there will be a strong post BK UAL stopping your attempts to generate revenue, lobbying congress against you at every step, and calling for your liquidation. And even better for you, despite an incredibly high debt level, yu're blessed with one of the oldest most inefficient fleets in the business. Packbacks a "senior NWA FA" Do you really consider yourself "solvent"? If you guys got it made, then why would you need to match payrates at UAL? Why would the pension need to be frozen? It'll get even funnier when SWA runds out of "low hanging U fruit" and comes after MSP and MEM...